Classification Changes

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cedestech
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Re: Classification Changes

Post by cedestech »

I asked for opinions but I also assumed it would be backed up with fact or example.

I mean blue is a completely nice color but I prefer red.... There is no reason for it, that is simply bias.
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Bob Mc Alice
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Re: Classification Changes

Post by Bob Mc Alice »

I for one hope we stay with the current book system. But if we are forced to the electronic reporting system, I as a match director WILL NOT be the one entering individual scores. It will be the competitors responsibility to keep his own scores reported.
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BrentD
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Re: Classification Changes

Post by BrentD »

Books or no books are all the same to me. I could not care less.

The silhouette game is in MUCH better condition that I realized. If books vs. no books is our biggest problem, we are doing just fine after all.
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Re: Classification Changes

Post by jbolt »

Why would the NRA change? Simple, it makes it easier for them. As far as I know Silhouette and one other shooting sport are the only competitions not on the electronic reporting system. They wouldn't have to deal with getting books printed, mailing and collecting money manually every year. Better tracking of competitors.

As a match director for multiple events I'm with Bob M. I won't be spending more time entering scores at home. I assume the electronic reporting system will also have some fee attached that would require the match director to collect an additional fee from each competitor who want's their score recorded.

I'm fine with the books other than them sending me twice or more than I ask for each year. :ymsigh:
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Re: Classification Changes

Post by Doodaddy »

I'm not saying the books don't serve their purpose. They do. I'm just saying even systems that work can be improved. And by improved I mean brought out of the dark ages.

Let's look at the benchrest world.

https://www.americanrimfire.com/index.php/rankings

Select Unlimited Outdoor Aggregate and click submit. You'll see the current standing of average scores along with a multitude of other stats across the current season. Click a name. You'll see all of the sanctioned matches they've shot this season. Click the pages icon beneath a date of one of the matches on the far left column. You'll see the results of that match.

All they do is have a unique number for each competitor (the NRA already has that number associated to each shooter) and the results associate to each respective shooter. Fill out results into a spreadsheet and upload to the site or send to an administrator. Doesn't have to be done at the time of the match so it's not like clubs need some sort of networked infrastructure if they don't have it now.

It doesn't even have to replace the books if a shooter still wants to document that way. It's just a minimal effort from match directors paired with a little effort from the NRA and we could really step up Silhouette's appeal. Or some other entity. Doesn't have to be NRA. This reminds me I need to make a phone call.
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Re: Classification Changes

Post by jbmarshtx »

I'm new to competitive shooting, 1.5 years in silhouette. Not overly young, but younger than many. Moving to a more online system would very likely help the sport, which by most accounts on this site is dying. Match listings, results, sign up, etc.

If I want to shoot PRS, NRL, and others (I don't), I can go to an online site and sign up. I go to a site for a calendar. I go to an online site and find match results shortly after the match is shot.

Doodaddy just posted something similar about benchrest.

If I want to shoot silhouette or at least have a place to ask questions that might get answered, I lurk on a forum that I requested access to over a year ago with no luck. I go to rimfire central and ask AllenC on there how to get access to steel chickens. There have been 2 posts updated in the last couple of months asking how to get access to this site for firends.

I go to the local rifle club and email the silhouette contact and never hear back. I go shoot a match and meet some pretty good folks and then shoot some more. If I want results to see how some of the folks I've met are shooting, maybe someone will post a pdf or phone pic on the site. Finally I get access to steel chickens and get told on about post #5 how to live my life even though my backpack with my book, shooting glasses and muffs was stolen in truck break in.

I'm not saying the system doesn't work either, I'm opining that an update might help. I was trying to find the TX State Highpower results online. I didn't find them...I'll post the results of the Texas State High Power match since I have a picture...
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BrentD
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Re: Classification Changes

Post by BrentD »

The NRA has, for decades, used other methods of tracking competitors. There are no books for BPTR for example. Never have been. They keep track of scores and classifications from match reports. Really pretty simple. The NRA has both a competitor number and a membership number they can use to track the shooter. In the "modern era" I can go on line and enter my membership number and get back my classifications for each of the BPTR competitions. In any event, keeping track of shooters and scores w/o books is something that the NRA can do and has done for a long, long time.

I kind of like the books for keepsakes of sorts, but honestly, I have more detailed information in my rifle's journal.

After we get this straightened out, maybe we can discuss the dessert menu for the Shooters' Banquet. That must be next on the priority list. :)
cedestech
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Re: Classification Changes

Post by cedestech »

Doodaddy wrote: Tue Sep 18, 2018 11:56 am It's just a minimal effort from match directors paired with a little effort from the NRA and we could really step up Silhouette's appeal.
Not to be accused of being argumentative again but who's definition is "minimal effort"? It's minimul effort for me to jot down some numbers in peoples books while at the range and when I get home the match box goes back in the corner and I'm done with it for the month.

"Less expense for the NRA"... Now THAT is a argument or example that is legitimate. I'd bet is may be cheaper for the NRA but for the people who want it... there will be a fee and if you shoot multiple times a month like some of us it'll be more then $14 a year.... It's the same way they slip that tenths of a percent property tax increase for the greater good into your property tax bill each year.... it's only a few dollars.... here, there, then before you know it....
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Re: Classification Changes

Post by atomicbrh »

Besides silhouette and other match shooting our son started playing competitive tennis at around age 6. That means he had a USTA travelling card at that age. We could not sign him up to play tournaments unless we had the internet and a credit card. That was many years ago. Tournament results were instant. Not each individual point but game and set scores were on the USTA site instantly. You also got on that same website to find out at which facility you were playing, what time to play and who your opponent was. All he and his opponent did was go to the ladies at the statistics desk and report the score when the match was over. Parents were not allowed to coach or have any interaction with the players. No umpires and no adults on the court at that level. If he won the match we got back on the website to find out who he played next and where we were supposed to be. Huge tournaments might be played at multiple courts located miles away from each other but in the same city.
Here is the USTA website today.
https://tennislink.usta.com/tournaments ... earch.aspx
If a NRA reporting system worked as good as the United States Tennis Association system it would be great.
The difference is the USTA has paid employees and IT people at every level of play even local.
Last edited by atomicbrh on Tue Sep 18, 2018 1:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
cedestech
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Re: Classification Changes

Post by cedestech »

atomicbrh wrote: Tue Sep 18, 2018 12:43 pm
The difference is the USTA has paid employees and IT people at every level of play even local.

Hammer, nail, hit on the head.... There is no such thing as a free lunch....
Emmett Dibble, Houston, Texas. Where's my buddy Jason? Keeper of electronic records and banisher of little pieces of paper?
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Re: Classification Changes

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jbmarshtx wrote: Tue Sep 18, 2018 12:12 pmMoving to a more online system would very likely help the sport, which by most accounts on this site is dying. Match listings, results, sign up, etc.

If I want to shoot PRS, NRL, and others (I don't), I can go to an online site and sign up. I go to a site for a calendar. I go to an online site and find match results shortly after the match is shot.

If I want to shoot silhouette or at least have a place to ask questions that might get answered, I lurk on a forum that I requested access to over a year ago with no luck. I go to rimfire central and ask AllenC on there how to get access to steel chickens. There have been 2 posts updated in the last couple of months asking how to get access to this site for firends.

I go to the local rifle club and email the silhouette contact and never hear back. I go shoot a match and meet some pretty good folks and then shoot some more. If I want results to see how some of the folks I've met are shooting, maybe someone will post a pdf or phone pic on the site. Finally I get access to steel chickens and get told on about post #5 how to live my life even though my backpack with my book, shooting glasses and muffs was stolen in truck break in.

I'm not saying the system doesn't work either, I'm opining that an update might help. I was trying to find the TX State Highpower results online. I didn't find them...I'll post the results of the Texas State High Power match since I have a picture...
Brandon is exactly right - in the internet/information age - we are about 20 years behind every other competitive sport in the world. His struggles are a great example of some of the reasons that we have trouble getting new folks.

Dustin
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Re: Classification Changes

Post by Doodaddy »

cedestech wrote: Tue Sep 18, 2018 12:18 pm
Doodaddy wrote: Tue Sep 18, 2018 11:56 am It's just a minimal effort from match directors paired with a little effort from the NRA and we could really step up Silhouette's appeal.
Not to be accused of being argumentative again but who's definition is "minimal effort"? It's minimul effort for me to jot down some numbers in peoples books while at the range and when I get home the match box goes back in the corner and I'm done with it for the month.

"Less expense for the NRA"... Now THAT is a argument or example that is legitimate. I'd bet is may be cheaper for the NRA but for the people who want it... there will be a fee and if you shoot multiple times a month like some of us it'll be more then $14 a year.... It's the same way they slip that tenths of a percent property tax increase for the greater good into your property tax bill each year.... it's only a few dollars.... here, there, then before you know it....
I love devil's advocate. Be as argumentative as you want!

It's my definition of minimal effort. If you say it's minimal effort to jot down some numbers in a book, it's minimal effort to jot them down on a piece of paper and plug them into a website/email. It might add 17-90 seconds of your time at the match to write down names and scores on a piece of paper and maybe twice that into a website. I'd say the return is well worth the investment.
dustinflint wrote: Tue Sep 18, 2018 1:10 pm
jbmarshtx wrote: Tue Sep 18, 2018 12:12 pmMoving to a more online system would very likely help the sport, which by most accounts on this site is dying. Match listings, results, sign up, etc.

If I want to shoot PRS, NRL, and others (I don't), I can go to an online site and sign up. I go to a site for a calendar. I go to an online site and find match results shortly after the match is shot.

If I want to shoot silhouette or at least have a place to ask questions that might get answered, I lurk on a forum that I requested access to over a year ago with no luck. I go to rimfire central and ask AllenC on there how to get access to steel chickens. There have been 2 posts updated in the last couple of months asking how to get access to this site for firends.

I go to the local rifle club and email the silhouette contact and never hear back. I go shoot a match and meet some pretty good folks and then shoot some more. If I want results to see how some of the folks I've met are shooting, maybe someone will post a pdf or phone pic on the site. Finally I get access to steel chickens and get told on about post #5 how to live my life even though my backpack with my book, shooting glasses and muffs was stolen in truck break in.

I'm not saying the system doesn't work either, I'm opining that an update might help. I was trying to find the TX State Highpower results online. I didn't find them...I'll post the results of the Texas State High Power match since I have a picture...
Brandon is exactly right - in the internet/information age - we are about 20 years behind every other competitive sport in the world. His struggles are a great example of some of the reasons that we have trouble getting new folks.

Dustin
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dustinflint
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Re: Classification Changes

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The books are not a big deal or a big problem (we certainly have more important issues to correct), and they technically work, but they don't work very well. They are not really practical nor are they useful to grow the game.

PRACTICAL:

Practically there is no reason in the world that the match director should have to take time to record the scores in the scorebook. It is an unnecessary waste of time. The only scores that need attention are scores that affect classification. A much more practical approach would be a small license the size of a credit card that shooters buy each year. It should list the shooter's name, birthday, shooter number and classification in each separate silhouette discipline and a place to check off (or hole punch, etc) for each score needed to move into the next classification. When the shooter shoots a score in the next class, the card is marked by the match director. When the shooter moves up in class, an new card is issued by the NRA (or the card can be marked and a new card only issued at the beginning of each year).

This is cheap - it requires a simple database that keeps up with the shooters' name, birthday, number and classifications. The database could be created in less than half an hour by anyone that knows what they are doing.

USEFULNESS TO GROW THE GAME:

Of course, the license above, just like the books, don't put scores, results, rankings, etc. on the internet where people can go and get interested in what's going on, as has been discussed. This is probably essential to grow our game in the internet era. To do this would require a bigger central database and work for match directors on one end and someone running the website/database at the other end. An electronic reporting system would serve this purpose - BUT there is probably a better way of getting this done cheaply that does not involve the NRA. That is actually being worked on now and hopefully soon we will have a central place to find a championship match calendar, results, and information on how folks are shooting at local matches. More info should be coming out about that soon.

Dustin
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Re: Classification Changes

Post by atomicbrh »

My United States Tennis Association comparison lacked one important factor and that was cost.
Back in the 1990's the fee for a 9 year old and under to play a local tournament was $35 or more.
This only guaranteed that the child would play a minimum of two matches.
That meant one match in the main bracket if he lost and one match in the losers bracket if he lost there.
If he kept winning it could be three matches per day. Those tennis fees are probably much higher now.
If the NRA becomes involved in electronic score keeping to this extent, there is no way that the costs of a local monthly match will stay the same which is usually $5 or $10. If local match fees go above $10 we will drastically reduce the number of those matches that we shoot.
Ammo, food on the road and gas would just make local matches too expensive when the closest match is 3 hours away.
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Re: Classification Changes

Post by jbolt »

This is currently posted on the NRA website.

"Approved Tournament

Any well-organized Saturday afternoon club practice session can be operated as an NRA Approved Tournament with little extra effort. A well-run practice session will require the same operating personnel and organization that a sanctioned tournament requires.

The following are required by the NRA before a tournament will be sanctioned as an Approved Tournament:

An application form (available from the NRA Competitive Shooting Division) submitted in duplicate to the NRA at least thirty days before the tournament. This application lists the club number, type, name, date and location of the tournament, and names the following: Match Director, the contact person, and the Supervisor (who is selected by the sponsor and who acts as Referee for the tournament, but who does not have to be an appointed Official NRA Referee, Club Jury Representative for Silhouette). A telephone number for contact during normal working hours must also be listed.

Two copies of the proposed program are submitted with the application. The program is reviewed and one copy returned with an NRA sanctioning signature or with suggested changes. (In an Approved Tournament, the program does not have to be reproduced by the sponsor. A single copy may be posted on the range bulletin board. We recommend reproduction, however, for distribution to prospective entrants and to answer inquires).
Any publicity concerning your tournament (or any programs you send out) should carry the information that there will be a charge of $4.50 per shooter payable to the NRA. (Of course, you will have to add this fee to your fees in order to have sufficient funds to pay tournament expenses, including target costs, awards, etc.) This fee is not charged in Silhouette matches.

After the tournament is completed, the sponsor is expected to do the following promptly: 1) mail in appropriate NRA registration and Score Reporting Cards with correct name, address, NRA ID number, scores and number of shots posted for each entry so these can be made part of each competitor's classification record (silhouette competitors have scores posted in their classification score record books) and, 2) submit the NRA registration of $4.50 per competitor. (The Supervisor cannot compete in the tournament but all other officials may.) Tournament sponsors who fail to submit scores and fees required by NRA Rules may be prohibited from conducting further sanctioned tournaments. DO NOT submit applications for future tournaments with the scores and fees."


Not sure how old this is since it still talks of mailing in the match results. How would everyone feel about an extra $4.50 per match? Why on earth did they choose $4.50? I'd go mad having to scrounge up quarters just to run a match.

We don't have a dedicated silhouette range so our Saturday small bore match is run during public hours. The non-member range fee is $20 for the day. Silhouette shooters get a $10 discount. I charge $5 for the match. This match fee has been the same for almost 20 years. We don't take money from the club and have been self supporting. This year will be the first year that expenses will exceed what we take in. I don't want to raise the match fee but may need to or go to the club but that can be a can of worms. If we get additional NRA fees then a single 60 shot match could become $20 - $25. I don't know how that would go over.

Silhouette is only alive at our range due to a few volunteers. I barely have time to manage the two monthly events we have and with out their help it wouldn't happen. If we move to a reporting system like above it just adds extra time to enter scores, collect and keep track of money, deposit money etc. If more people were willing to step up and help I say great bring it on but too many just want to shoot and go home.

I don't see the current reporting system as something that is holding back the sport. I get about six newcomers a year. In the six years I have run the matches there are four who are now regulars and they are in the 40 and over crowd. When I run into those who tried and quit, usually 30 and under, all of them said it was to hard.
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