Update on Nationals Numbers

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lijeboy
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Re: Update on Nationals Numbers

Post by lijeboy »

Taps wrote: Sun Jul 01, 2018 11:14 pm Hey Al, you need to convince some of your "eastern" buddies that it is now safe in the "wild-west", it has been tamed, there are now bridges over the mighty Mississippi, ( no need to swim ), and that they should come on down to Raton and SUPPORT THEIR SPORT. :-bd
There are several, I think 12, guys from Pennsylvania making the trip to shoot lever action only.
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DonM
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Re: Update on Nationals Numbers

Post by DonM »

cedestech wrote: Mon Jul 02, 2018 6:08 am
DonM wrote: Mon Jul 02, 2018 5:42 am Greg Connor said that rotating the nationals from one spot to another would only result in a regional match with the national title.
FWIW I agree with that. I have belonged to some other national organizations and they all have a traditional finals at a traditional location. It is what it is, some people it's easy to get to, some, not so much. For the sanctioning body it makes it much easier because they can make multi-year deals on the facility/accommodations and such.

Financially it makes sense.
Yessir, no matter where a match is held some are going to be close some not so much. If a shooter is interested in shooting a national championship match they'll make the trip if real life schedules allow.
TexasSilhouette
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Re: Update on Nationals Numbers

Post by TexasSilhouette »

Image
Added a few more disciplines, you may need to Shift+F5 (forced Refresh) to see them.
Last edited by TexasSilhouette on Tue Jul 03, 2018 9:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
thauglor
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Re: Update on Nationals Numbers

Post by thauglor »

Texas, thank you for that great picture of the info.

If you have the info, can you color code a line above the years, or even the years themselves, if the HP and SB were held back to back or if they were different dates.

If you don't, does anyone else have that info.
Bob Mc Alice
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Re: Update on Nationals Numbers

Post by Bob Mc Alice »

Very nice chart, thanks for the effort.

A good friend provided me with HP Nationals results from way back in the early years of HP silhouette in the USA. The following data is from the Ben Avery range in Phoenix, AZ. That range was built in the early 70's and dedicated in 1974. The very first HP National there was held in 1977 with 288 shooters attending. Back then there was no hunter rifle category.

Phoenix 1977 ......288 shooters
Phoenix 1978 ......294
Phoenix 1981 ......306.....a possible most ever attendance number. Where did they all park their cars?
Phoenix 1982 ......191
Phoenix 1983 ......199

There was a long pause before the next HP Nationals were held in Phoenix, Arizona.

Does anyone have other year and location data to share?
Last edited by Bob Mc Alice on Mon Jul 02, 2018 9:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
lijeboy
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Re: Update on Nationals Numbers

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TexasSilhouette, i feel your pain.
~Jeanne Ring

It's always something.
kevinbear
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Re: Update on Nationals Numbers

Post by kevinbear »

The number dropped dramatically in 2009 probably due to the economy going in bottom of the tank, it's hard to say weather or not those people that dropped off then will return as the economy rebounds. As far as them being replaced by new people that's up to the recruitment department of which every one on here is a member of.
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Bob Mc Alice
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Re: Update on Nationals Numbers

Post by Bob Mc Alice »

Normal human attrition has accounted for a lot of the numbers loss. After all we started developing this game in the late 60's. The invention of Levergun Silhouette influenced the shift of competitors moving away from HP in recent times. Practically all of the current lever shooters have strong HP background. Can't blame them, it's a fun game. I have fired a couple of big bore and smallbore matches here. Not quite ready to jump into the pool.

OK....we got some missing years of HP Nationals locations and shooters numbers. Surly somebody could fill in the blanks to complete this picture. 79-80 and 84 thru 93 needed to complete the information. Now get to it. 8)
Snake
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Re: Update on Nationals Numbers

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I have a few comments on recent posts:
1.) Citing the wisdom of Greg Conner that moving the national somehow converts it to a regional ignores Greg's self interest of not wanting to travel. That theory was hollow and unfounded.
2.) Asserting that if one wants to go to a national they'll travel no matter where its at is akin to saying 'let them eat cake'. I'm not trying to disturb habits and entrenched beliefs , I'm offering suggestions to develop our sport not to cater to anyone's comfort.
3) If economics explain the attendance decline since 2009 then how does the recession on the early 90's fit in? I suggest the decline is more fundamental though I'm sure economics have some impact.
4.) The typical deer rifle in this part of the country is the 308, 243, ,'06, 270 and the ubiquitous 30-30' . I hunt with 7-08....I take my 270 out west. The comment 'typical' is speculative.
5.) Note the variation in the numbers between HP and SB. One idea of keeping those two natioals together was to cater to those that shoot both. Apparently that was also just an 'idea'
Jerry G
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Re: Update on Nationals Numbers

Post by Jerry G »

I think the number of bays required to host the nationals should be reduced. You do not need 10 bays of animals to host 100 shooters note is there a need to have the HP and SB at the same range. With that logic HP, SB, and lever should all be at the same range.

8 bays of animals w/5 relays will handle 160 shooters very easily. 8 bays and 6 relays would fit into an easy day. Lets move the nationals around the country so different people can compete without traveling clear across the country.
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BrentD
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Re: Update on Nationals Numbers

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Jerry G wrote: Tue Jul 03, 2018 11:01 amLets move the nationals around the country so different people can compete without traveling clear across the country.
That has been strongly suggested and even experimented with for BPCR (there was one "eastern Nationals"). It doesn't fly. Say what you want, but many of us go to Raton because we like Raton, we like the people we know there, the whole package. Send it to Ohio, Pennsylvania, wherever, and I and many others, will go fishing. That just won't fly.

The Nationals are not simply a match any more than the Quigley (which I do not shoot) is a 40 shots for score rifle match. They are much bigger events, both social and competitive. If you do not recognize that, then you will not understand why the people who do come, keep coming.
cedestech
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Re: Update on Nationals Numbers

Post by cedestech »

BrentD wrote: Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:07 pm
Jerry G wrote: Tue Jul 03, 2018 11:01 amLets move the nationals around the country so different people can compete without traveling clear across the country.
That has been strongly suggested and even experimented with for BPCR (there was one "eastern Nationals"). It doesn't fly. Say what you want, but many of us go to Raton because we like Raton, we like the people we know there, the whole package. Send it to Ohio, Pennsylvania, wherever, and I and many others, will go fishing. That just won't fly.

The Nationals are not simply a match any more than the Quigley (which I do not shoot) is a 40 shots for score rifle match. They are much bigger events, both social and competitive. If you do not recognize that, then you will not understand why the people who do come, keep coming.
THAT.
Emmett Dibble, Houston, Texas. Where's my buddy Jason? Keeper of electronic records and banisher of little pieces of paper?
DonM
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Re: Update on Nationals Numbers

Post by DonM »

Snake wrote: Tue Jul 03, 2018 6:05 am I have a few comments on recent posts:
1.) Citing the wisdom of Greg Conner that moving the national somehow converts it to a regional ignores Greg's self interest of not wanting to travel. That theory was hollow and unfounded.
His reasoning was sound, if you have it in Pennsylvania one year, and the shooters from the other coast know it will be back closer to them the following year, the close by shooters will attend and the ones that have longer distance won't travel, and in his own words " it won't be a true national championship
2.) Asserting that if one wants to go to a national they'll travel no matter where its at is akin to saying 'let them eat cake'. I'm not trying to disturb habits and entrenched beliefs , I'm offering suggestions to develop our sport not to cater to anyone's comfort
:?:
3) If economics explain the attendance decline since 2009 then how does the recession on the early 90's fit in? I suggest the decline is more fundamental though I'm sure economics have some impact.
Ecomics definitely played a part in the decline from 2009 and beyond, many folks lost their 401k and other retirement funds, which means they lost the available money to travel. Not to mention 4$ a gallon fuel prices forcing travel cost to skyrocket
4.) The typical deer rifle in this part of the country is the 308, 243, ,'06, 270 and the ubiquitous 30-30' . I hunt with 7-08....I take my 270 out west. The comment 'typical' is speculative.
Born and raised here in the west , your list of cartridges is identical to what most folks that live here use as well, and they not only hunt deer, but antelope, elk and the occasional lucky one that gets a moose or bighorn sheep tag
5.) Note the variation in the numbers between HP and SB. One idea of keeping those two natioals together was to cater to those that shoot both. Apparently that was also just an 'idea'
Brent is exactly right, it's the entire event that brings people back. The Whittington in and of itself is a travel destination for many, and the attraction of a national championship match coupled the social gathering that goes with the gathering of people from across the nation and many foreign countries just sweetens the pot.
DonM
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Re: Update on Nationals Numbers

Post by DonM »

Brent mentioned the Quigley match, aside from the extra large social gathering/cult it has become, it is held the same place the same weekend in June every year, people can start planning their vacations for the next year, make their motel reservations for the next year, before the last shot is fired.
The NRA competitions div could take a good lesson from that.
Bob Mc Alice
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Re: Update on Nationals Numbers

Post by Bob Mc Alice »

Hey Brent, why the rapid plunge in BPCR shooters from 2006 to present?
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