Newbie needs aiming help

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gupvn759
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Newbie needs aiming help

Post by gupvn759 »

Well, I just participated in my first silhouette match this past weekend. It was fun! (even though I only hit 10 targets, out of 40.) I'm definitely hooked. It was Pistol Caliber Cowboy Lever Action. I had taken my rifle to the range multiple times prior and sighted it in, using a bench rest. So I know my rifle was firing properly. My challenge was that I couldn't keep the barrel steady. While it wasn't moving a huge amount, my sight picture, for example, would be moving from - chicken feet > chicken head > chicken beak > chicken tail, etc. etc.
What are some of the techniques that you experienced folks use to a) steady the barrel and b) pull the trigger when the sight picture is right on the place where you want to fire?
Thanks!
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snaketail2
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Re: Newbie needs aiming help

Post by snaketail2 »

I'll share a few tips about the addiction - I'm sure others will offer more.

Shooting from a bench is OK to determine basic sight-in, but to be completely "on-target" you need to hold the rifle as you would in a match. This means standing up. Do the initial sight-in from the bench, then complete the sight-in from the off-hand (standing) position.

How you hold the rifle will affect the amount of wobble you have, and everyone has wobble. Experiment with various holds. See what others are doing and modify the rifle grip to your needs. I hold my rifle with my left hand back close to the lever...a technique I adopted after seeing others do something similar. Others hold the rifle with their left hand extended - experiment and see which works best for you. And expect it to change as you get more experience.

Trigger pull? You didn't mention what rifle you are using. Many shooters do a "trigger-job" by changing springs, trigger brands, etc. Two of my three have such trigger jobs - the one that has a factory trigger shots just as well, with a slightly heavier trigger. Adjust the trigger - maybe, when you get good enough to think the rifle is holding you back then look into what modification will help.

Sight picture - ask 12 people and you'll get a dozen different answers - I think. Here's what works for me: I know my sight settings for C,P,T,R - how many clicks on my Williams sight between targets. If I can practice before the match I make a note of the best place to hold for each target (chicken leg, ear of the pig, tail of turkey, bottom of the ram's horn, etc.). Because the light is different every time you go to the range and "light forcing" will change you point of aim. If you don't get to practice before a match - aim for center mass of the first target and adjust after the spotter tells you where the shot went. A good spotter is very important.

And - practice, practice, practice.
I laid out for 15 years and shot a 6 my first time back! It has taken me a couple of years to get my style back and see my scores go up, but I'm having fun with the process and even planning to go to the Nationals this year.

None of us do it for a living - good thing too, cause some days we'd go hungry.

Michael
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ALPHAWOLF45
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Re: Newbie needs aiming help

Post by ALPHAWOLF45 »

I have only shot 3 matches thus far . 22, 23 and 26 of 40 with my Rossi .357 magnum. From my bit of experience I would say that trigger pull weight is one of the very most critical factors...For me there is always a very short pause when sights are lined up perfectly and then it is time for the gun to go bang, insufficient time to initiate a slow steady squeeze.. I have worked my Rossi over and it now has a very nice 1 pound trigger pull.. I end up with a couple more knockdowns than with my Marlin .22 with 2.5 pound trigger.
I use front post with small round dot at it's top and I center it on the silhouette.. Chickens are probably the worst for me.
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dustinflint
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Re: Newbie needs aiming help

Post by dustinflint »

10/40 is great for your first match. Keep shooting and shooting and shooting. Also, ask lots of technique questions to the best shooters in your club. It's hard to get good technique info here because no one is able to show you what they're trying to tell you.

Watch good shooters shoot and look at pictures of how they hold the rifle. If you stick with it you will get better and learn a ton.

My personal recommendation is to shoot smallbore scoped silhouette as well as cowboy, even if you are mostly interested in cowboy. It's more difficult to hit targets in the scoped game - shooting that discipline translates very well to cowboy and will make you a better shooter.

Dustin
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Re: Newbie needs aiming help

Post by gupvn759 »

Thanks everyone! Since the match, I've been practicing at home, unloaded of course. I've tried holding the barrel with my left arm almost fully extended as well as the close-in hold - basically propping the rifle up with my fingers near the trigger guard with my elbow braced against my side. I had seen another good shooter do it this way at the range. The second way would have less arm fatigue, while I seem to have a steadier hold with my arm more extended. Yes - practice, practice, practice!
My gun is a Henry H006 44 magnum, btw. While I haven't measured it, the trigger pull is a bit softer than my Marlin 336, which I plan to silhouette shoot as well - although 200 yards is a LONG way for MY eyes. :)
For the pistol caliber, my range work had me aiming at the feet of the chicken, the bottom belly of the pig (hit 5 of those), the center of the turkey, and near the top back of the ram. Basically hitting +3" at 50 yards, 0 at 75 yards, and -3" at 100 yards.
So it sounds like I need a soft trigger pull so that I can fire the gun easily and quickly as the sight picture is passing over my aim point - about 1/10 of a second. :)
OK, back to the range!
Thanks again!
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Re: Newbie needs aiming help

Post by snaketail2 »

"So it sounds like I need a soft trigger pull so that I can fire the gun easily and quickly as the sight picture is passing over my aim point - about 1/10 of a second."

Uh no, that's skeet shooting. And to be technically correct you shoot clays where the target is "going to be" when the shot get there. Pass-shooting for silhouette might give you a couple of bad habits you have to break later.

Do like Dustin said. Once you get used to shooting those tiny Smallbore targets the big Lever Action targets will seen much easier.

And you want a "crisp" trigger rather than a soft one. You can get better shots with a crips trigger then you can with a soft one. I'm sure that is what you wanted to say.

10 is a "B" score, you won't compete with higher level until your earn the higher classification. And you'll get better with more practice.


M
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Re: Newbie needs aiming help

Post by gupvn759 »

Thank you, snaketail2. Yes, what I really meant to say was that the trigger pull on the Henry was an estimated 1-2 pounds lighter than the Marlin. They are both crisp.
Actually, now that you mention skeet shooting... :)
What I was trying to describe is that my sight picture is always moving, because I can't keep the barrel still. If you can, I am very impressed, and jealous. Sure, the movements are small, but when you're looking at a tiny chicken at 40 yards those movements seem big. So what I was trying to describe, and ask help on, is how/when do you pull the trigger? The sight is constantly moving across and around the chicken = it only passes over the intended point of aim for very short periods of time. I was guessing at the 1/10 second - maybe it is closer to 1/4 second but I have no idea exactly how long it stays in one place.
I did notice that some shooters seem to use up almost the entire 24 seconds (for each of the 5 targets) firing at each target. The longer I take the more movement I start to see in the barrel (fatigue?). So I was wondering, what are they waiting for? If you wait long enough do you eventually get a longer (1/2+ second?) window over the point of aim? Or are they waiting for a specific pattern of movement? For example, passing over the point of aim in a specific direction, like bottom-to-top or left-to-right?
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snaketail2
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Re: Newbie needs aiming help

Post by snaketail2 »

I can't speak for everyone, but I take my time getting on target. 120 seconds is a lot of time. If I'm wobbling too much I can bring it down and start over (and, I need to do that more often).
Way back in the old days - the early 60s I used to shoot at the National Guard Armory every Saturday morning. We shot three-position, 50 foot targets. The grouchy old instructor told me to hold the rifle still or make tiny figure-eights over the target with the front sight. Figure-8s worked for me - perhaps it will for you too.
And, practice, practice, practice.
Its a steep learning curve at first, but it getter better as you practice more. Read Dustin's post again - he got it right.

Michael
Overheard at the Dairy Queen "I live in Port Aransas,but I'm not from here...you can tell because I have all my own teeth."
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Re: Newbie needs aiming help

Post by gupvn759 »

Thanks! That was exactly the kind of thing I was looking for. Now for more practice.....
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Re: Newbie needs aiming help

Post by Tlee »

Regarding reducing wobble: Assuming you've perfected a good stance/hold where you're holding the rifle without exerting any significant energy... One exercise that helped me tremendously, taken from basic marksmanship training at some point, is to dryfire at a pretty good sized blank circle.... It doesn't matter the size or distance, you're simply trying to work on the wobble AND not moving the rifle significantly (if at all) during the trigger break. Short practice periods several times a day are much better than long periods of practice. Once you can keep the sights inside say a 6" circle at whatever distance 100% of the time, go to a smaller circle. Continuing to do this over a period of days or even weeks, you'll be amazed at how small you can keep that wobble eventually. Yeah, dry firing is boring, but is a lot cheaper than blowing ammo while you're trying to work on the basics. Specific to the trigger break... Once you've got the reducing circles mastered pretty good, have someone lay a coin on the barrel after you're in the gun mounted position. You should eventually be able to break the trigger withOUT disturbing the coin.

Regarding the hold (how long): If you haven't taken the shot within 10-15 seconds, start over... This varies from person to person, but for 75-80% of the population holding any longer than that results in MORE wobble, not less (for me it's 8 seconds, on a GOOD day). I've only seen 2 people in 40+ years of shooting that seem to be able to continually hold for an extended period and not have the wobble increase noticeably after some period (measured in seconds). Dustin Flint comes close to being the best I've seen shooting silhouette with a rock solid hold, so anything he tells you, I'd take to the bank as golden. Having said that, I have seen some REALLY good 3P shooters that look like statues when they sight/fire. Don't stress out too much about it though, too much focus on the "am I doing this right" can be just as harmful as no focus at all. Remember, you're trying to have fun. Just work on it a little at a time. Also, there have been lotsa championships shot by guys that had a lot of movement in their stance or hold (a few I'd say are downright shaky), that for a brief moment can find that "zen moment", break the shot, and continue onward. I'm not gonna name any names, but a some of them are on this forum.

I have to RE-remind myself this a few times a year. DRYfire exercises, or at least practicing with an air rifle really helps and will show you issues you may have developed (flinch, trigger slap, wobble, breathing, etc) that you may never notice or pick up on with live fire.


Regarding trigger pull:

IMHO... As long as you're SQUEEZING the trigger", and not "slapping the trigger", anything below a 2 to 3 pound pull is not going to make much difference. I know lots of Master level shooters using 2-3lb triggers. I've shot silhouette with firearms with as little as a 4 ounce trigger and I can tell you that 2 to 3 pounds is a good SAFE balance, for me. Also, keep in mind as you shoot MORE rifles (3 at the nationals), it's usually helpful that all have a similar trigger break. I can tell you that it does no good to have one rifle with an 11oz trigger, another with a 1-1/2 lb trigger, and a 3rd with a 2-3lb trigger (real life example of the 3 rifles that I tried to shoot for a couple years). I now shoot a 2 to 2-1/2lb trigger on them all and my scores have improved since doing so... They're consistent now, no AD's with the light trigger rifle and no "fighting the trigger" on the heavier.

Lastly, if you'll PM me your email address, I'll send you PDFs of a couple articles I've collected over the years of coaching kids that I find myself referring back to from time to time. Seems like I always have an "oh yeah, I'd forgotten about that" moment when reading them every year or so.

Just my .02,

-Tim
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Re: Newbie needs aiming help

Post by gupvn759 »

Thanks Tim!!!!
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Re: Newbie needs aiming help

Post by Innocent »

759,
Welcome to the addiction and to the family. We are as diverse and as dysfunctional as can be but that bond of those little metal animals and burning gunpowder is strong.
HOLD, back to basics. two to three deep breaths, let the last one half way out and hold. The average person will see the hear rate slow to its slowest point in 4 to 8 seconds after the initial breath hold., beyond that they start to wobble more. This is very evident in stronger powered scopes, which is where the movement is magnified. Train using the above suggestion, on a larger dot first and decrease in dot size as you see your movement tighten. DON'T expect to improve every time you practice. Some days are better than others, but overall repeating the sequence of breath control and TRIGGER SQUEEZE will become automatic.
TRIGGER SQUEEZE, not slap, stay on the trigger in a smooth straight back motion until you see the bullet impact the bank, this is also called follow through. Not just with the trigger finger but with the eyes and cheek on the stock. Let the recoil happen and you come back to where you broke the trigger before pulling out of position or releasing the trigger. This helps with verifying NPA (Natural Point of Aim).
BALANCE!!! So many respond with "so now I have to do Yoga, too?" Many of the top shooters that I have known practice some form of stretching, and other balance type exercises. The rifle should be an extension of your body, set it up so that it fits and you are using a few muscles as possible, less muscles, less movement.

Don't be afraid to try different things, what work for you may not work for someone else, body builds, coordination habits (may be due to previous injuries etc.) make each of us unique.

Do try to get consistent triggers, as Tim says, 6 oz on one and 3-4 lbs on the next is too much to train with. Crisp clean breaks on the triggers in this game.
As for Dustin....he is Jerry Tureau in his youth. Dustin is smart enough to have hooked up with a master of this sport and listened to all of his experience. Jerry like some of the rest of us, knows how to shoot, just making the ole body do that anymore is not what it used to be.
Watching a young man like Dustin come along and truly use the knowledge that Jerry has is such a blessing and I'm sure there is a lot of pride on Jerry's part.

Mary
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Re: Newbie needs aiming help

Post by atomicbrh »

Mary speaks a great truth there: Dustin is the Jerry Tureau of 35 years ago. I never thought another Jerry would come along. The only character trait missing is the ability to cook??
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Re: Newbie needs aiming help

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atomicbrh wrote:The only character trait missing is the ability to cook??
Hey Hey Hey!!! I can cook! I cooked myself some coffee just this morning!

Dustin
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Re: Newbie needs aiming help

Post by gupvn759 »

THANK YOU!!!! everyone, for your generous sharing of your knowledge and experience.
After taking my 336 out this weekend (because the next competition scheduled is a CLA), I have decided to put it away and just stick with my 44 Henry for the time being. I want/need to be able to focus on one gun, with one set of sights/aim, with one trigger pull. With all your help, and a LOT of practice, I hope to steepen my learning curve. You've been awesome!
Thanks again, everyone!
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