NRA Configuration Rules

[GabbyJs]

I agree with PaulG about the NRA Configuration Rules. The collapse of products by Marlin and Winchester for lever gun has only lead to the purchase of more foreign made products. I would rather see the development of more American craftsmen specializing in appropriate lever gun refinements, such as rebarreling. Restrictions limiting to identical cartridges, barrel lengths, etc., should not hurt the game. The only way this game will survive is to attract new shooters, with the ability to buy products suitable for the job at hand. The only Marlins of recent manufacture that I saw on my last shopping trip were short barrelled .45-70 Govt. and .30-30 type carbines. Typical of Remington's "don't need anything other than a huntin' gun" marketing attitude. With all the anti-gun and anti-hunting attitudes being shoved into the younger generations minds, we have to perpetuate the "good, clean fun" thing into it again. When I was a kid, pool halls and bowling alleys were places where gangsters hung out. Now we call them recreation centers. We need to elevate the gun clubs to that level of entertainment, where spectators can watch and understand, and eventually participate. American craftsmen displaced by the loss of manufacturing jobs would find building specialty guns as a "job booster" that this country needs also.

[twidpa]

This is an interesting discussion (what's up with all the X posts?). It is true that gamers will be gamers and gamers will push any rule to the limit. So I understand the re-barreling leading to other enhancements just like other disciplines, IDPA USPSA and other silhouette sports. You can deny it but it has happened quite a lot in my time. But then again I watched a 1oo year old marlin suffer a barrel bulge at a regional match. Would it be a bad thing to let that guy buy a barrel of similar configuration and length to keep the old iron in the game? I think not. Would you then end up with some body using that event as a reason to replace a perfectly fine barrel with a 1 inch or thicker replacement barrel? I think so. Just look at the fairly recent sight issue. If we keep going I can envision adjustable stocks, 2 inch barrels with 1/2 gutter cut in bottom for the mag tube, speedy ammo feeder tubes, o-limpik sights and tight fitting bowling shirts right around the corner!
t

[BrentD]

twidpa
Not sure what the x-posts are all about but it looks like Jerry might be embarrassed about what he posted. Sort of like a rather infamous Californian did a year or two back.

But anyway, I think your example of the guy with a ringed barrel is a good one - where you, by chance, looking over my shoulder at Raton?

I, and I think Paul, am interested in what the thinking was when that rule was made. I have a sort of off the wall idea to throw out there.

When BPCR came into being and became extremely popular, old Sharps, rollers, highwalls and Ballards were bought up by the fists fulls and rebarreled. Their original barrels were cast aside, rather than relined and the rifles altered to suit the new game. Perhaps the early CLR rule makers were thinking something similar might happen with levers. Indeed, the game has definitely impacted the lever gun market, driving prices up in a major way and perhaps some feel it is better than they are relined rather than rebarreled.

Anyway, that's my hypothesis. Not sure I'd bet the farm on it though.

Brent

[cslcAl]

I have mixed feelings about the rebarrel issue. Having come to Cowboy from the HP ranks, re barreling is a necessity as those barrels do wear out. Now that I have been in the CB game for about 15 years, and I do a LOT of shooting, I am totally convinced you'd be hard pressed to shoot out a 30-30. It does also seem a shame in the case of the damaged barrel that the fellow can't shoot that gun anymore. But, rules are rules.
My first 30-30 was a Win. Canadian And I put 6000 rounds through this gun and it still shoots as good a when it was new. Now bear in mind you have to take proper care of your barrel also. I don't think shooting offhand at the distances we shoot any small decline in accuracy would be detected. We aren't talking about the same degree of accuracy as in HP to start with anyhow.
In the event your gun did go south Winchester Commeratives are usually available at online auction sights for fairly reasonable prices. A lot of these are new in the box, and I have bought several this way. I have also seen several older Marlin 336A's online also.
The same goes with .22's. Lots of Marlin 39A's can be found online reasonable. Winchesters will be more as they are no longer made.
Now I agree with you when it comes to PC guns. When Marlin pulled the plug on guns that we would want to buy, that hurt. Those guns online are extremely pricey. You can possibly find an older 92 Winchester online reasonable if you spend the time to look. The best option for the price are Rossi's. I had one for a while, but I'm not a big fan of .357's.
One tactic I have used buying guns on online auctions is to look for refinished guns. The collectors don't want them, and I have a theory that if some one spent the money to refinish an old gun it must be a shooter. So far I'm 3 for 3 buying refinished. One of those I shot for a 3rd Open award at Nationals in 2010.
If you really want to get the whole story on how the rules were originally adopted you need to have a talk with Hughey Wilson when you're at Raton sometime.
Al Foust

[BrentD]

I didn't realize that Hugh was part of the original founders, but I'll make a point of asking him this summer. Thanks for the tip.

While I agree that you are not likely to wear out a lead bullet gun, lots of the older ones are ruined by corosion and poor cleaning techniques. It would be nice to see those back in the game. Relining only works for those with reasonable barrel lengths.

[PaulG]

I'm glad to see this getting back on track.

Allowing rebarreling to any contour and chambering currently or previously offered as a factory item will not lead inevitably to bull barrels, olympic sights and wildcat chamberings. True, there are those who have pushed this sort of thing in various disciplines, but I cite BPCR silhouette and its smallbore counterpart as examples of disciplines where the line has been held. If anything, the sight limitations for BPCR are stricter than for lever, and there has been no problem sticking with that standard. Although the rebarreling rule for Hunter Rifle Silhouette was liberalized some time back, it is still a game for what is basically a hunting rifle.

It's not just a case of a 30-30 being worn out. It might be a bum barrel right out of the box. Who wants to send a nice Marlin back to the factory today, and wait several months for a barrel that might or might not be acceptable? I believe that they would also require that the trigger, etc., be back to unmodified as it came from the factory. Who would want to turn a JM into a Remlin? Who wouldn't prefer to trust a competent gunsmith?

All it takes is the will of a majority who want to have rules that will maintain the spirit of the sport. Reductio ad absurdum means that if you go from A to B, it will inevitably lead to Y and Z. It is a form of straw man argument. The antis use it when they claim that liberalized carry laws will lead to the Wild West and blood in the streets. It isn't inevitable or even likely.

Paul

[PaulG]

Has anybody showed up at a match with one of the Mossberg 464 "tactical" lever actions, with the 6-way adjustable stock, flash hider, etc.? That stock looks like it might give a shooter an edge in terms of fit.

Probably legal under the rules, but makes me want to vomit.

Paul

[BrentD]

Paul, some of the cheesy decorated rifles that I see at Raton are about as bad, but you know, it takes all types and the more on the line, the better. That is an interesting question though. I can't see how it wouldn't be legal.

[cslcAl]

Paul, If someone did show up at our local match with the Mossberg lever gun, I would insist that the flash hider be taped. That is the rule for HP silhouette. It is not listed in the CB rules I suppose because who back then envisioned this type of lever gun on the market?
The adjustable butt might come in handy though. I for one have to add length to my stocks as I have Baboon like arms.
That is why I use leather butt stock covers. I add closed cell foam inside the cover to give me more length. Maybe that looks "cheesy" to some but for me it is very functional.

Al Foust

[BrentD]

That is why I use leather butt stock covers. I add closed cell foam inside the cover to give me more length. Maybe that looks "cheesy" to some but for me it is very functional.

Al Foust

Not cheesy at all. I do the same thing to my factory Shiloh and Axtell in BPCR. Cheesy is the brass tacks and feathers. And if that is what you like (or pink paint) and that's what it takes to get you to the line, I'm all for more cheese. One might say the same about the engraving on my favorite silhouette rifle.

[GTS]

BrentD, I think I might have been shooting with you at Raton last year. Were you squadded with an Englishman named James Quinlin? If so, I was the lonesome shooter that Jimmy jumped in and spotted for the entire 3 days.

Greg

[BrentD]

Yes, indeed! I was shooting with Quinn and Al Sledge, he of caliper-adjusting sights infamy. We had a fine time.

Actually, I love looking at all the rifles going by, even the "cheesy" ones.

BTW, Jim was shooting my 1890 Winchester pump gun (why are pumps legal? Another puzzling question for founding fathers ). It is a rifle that has been in my family for 3 generations now and it was equipped with a Marbles tang sight (also adjusted with calipers, damn englishmen... ) .

Who knows what this year will hold, but we have our campsite reserved and our ammo ready.

[GTS]

I thought it was you! I plan on being there as well, and at the risk of being seen with someone using a caliper, I will be sure and look you guys up.

But to get back on topic, I agree that there are some cases in which a replacement barrel should be allowed. That being said, I also recognize the fact that there will be people that would exploit such a rule change in an effort to gain an advantage. In my opinion, with regard to lever guns, the old barrels (if in good condition) will shoot right along side any new barrel. As one on my buddies is fond of saying, "It ain't about the bow and arrow, its about the Indian!"

As to the pump guns, it's a mystery to me as well. I think they should at the very least be allowed in pistol cartridge. There are so many nice Marlin 27's and Colt Lightening's out there in PC calibers, it just seems to me that it is a great waste of wonderful old firearms.

Greg

[cslcAl]

Greg, We submitted letters 3 years in a row to allow pumps in PCLA. They won't budge. It would alow availability to moe guns and we cited the youth involvement also. Their reasoning is that allowing them in SCR was a mistake.

Al Foust

[GTS]

Al, I believe I recall you mentioning that when I started a thread about allowing the .30 Remington in CLA. Probably one of the most obscure cartridges there is in a lever gun. Yet for some reason they decided to allow it. My personal belief is that a committee member or a good buddy of a committee member had one they wanted to shoot. There cannot possibly be enough owners of these rifles to mount a push for a rule change. Seems to me that what needs to change are the committee members. For the most part, they seem to be mired down in the "we've always done it like that" mentality. As most of us have come to realize, just because we have always done it a certain way, doesn't mean it is the best way or the right way. How do we go about getting some fresh thinking on the silhouette rules committee? Maybe it's time.

Greg