Illegal fiber optic sight

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glen ring
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Illegal fiber optic sight

Post by glen ring »

We have purchased and or made fiber optic inserts like Al Foust sells in the marketplace. We have shot a couple of matches with them and we love them. A couple of guys today mumbled something about protesting our illegal sights. We would never use Illegal sights and we think that they are 100% legal. What quote from the rules can we send to these guys to calm them down..Yep they protested after they were beaten. Jeanne is the match director and uses these inserts so it's kind of an awkward position. to be in.
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JohnHenry
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Re: Illegal fiber optic sight

Post by JohnHenry »

Glenn, regarding the front sight, the NRA Silhouette rules state: "Fiber optic material may be used in or on the post or bead and may not be longer that its support blade and not to exceed 1 1/8" in length. In an anti-glare tube the fiber optic material may not be any longer than the tube or extend outside the tube. I have three of the fiber optic inserts from Al Foust. They are legal within the rules stated above.
I have tried these type of sights in the past and found they didn't help me, so I went back to a post and hold 6 o'clock. It is just human nature that when you try something different, there are always going to be those people who think you are cheating. And, as we both know, Al Foust would never market a sight insert that wasn't legal. He's been in the game too long to even consider it.

Jim [-x
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Re: Illegal fiber optic sight

Post by glen ring »

Thanks Jim. That was basically the reply I gave them.The fiber optic has not allowed me any advantage other than being able to see my front sight clearer. My scores are about the same.
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Re: Illegal fiber optic sight

Post by cslcAl »

Fiber Optics History: shooters have been using some form of fiber optics for many years. There was only one year when they were not allowed. Due to some over exuberant fiber optic designs that disturbed a few competitors the NRA deemed them illegal starting with the year 2011. This caused quite an uproar and with a large amount of competitors signing a petition and writing letters and starting in 2012 fiber optics were again allowed with the stipulations mentioned in the previous post by Jim Luke.
The insert I have made available conforms to the current rules to the letter. Myself and many others have used these inserts the last three years at the Nationals and they have passed tech inspection each year.

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Re: Illegal fiber optic sight

Post by glen ring »

Thanks Al. That's about the same reply as mine. A couple of our newer shooters are shooting very well and I didn't want them to get rattled because they were using them.
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Re: Illegal fiber optic sight

Post by Bit-Flipper1973 »

I am probably one of the ones that this post is talking about.
I do not care if someone shoots a fiber optic sight or not. Also whether someone wins with a fiber optic sight or not.

A little history.
I probably started making the globe fiber optic front sight inserts around 6 or 7 years ago when I shot them at the nationals for the reason that it allowed me to see the sight. The were very much like the sights that are showing up now except the fiber optic material was held in place by an o-ring and the o-ring could be removed to change the fiber optic color. I have used .009, .019 and .029 fiber optic material in the sights. In one of the meetings at the nationals when a fiber optic sight rule change was being discussed I commented that if the rule was adopted it meant the fiber optic material in the sight could be not longer than the thickness of the insert. The silhouette leaders said that would be correct. The following year I changed my design to conform to the rule change and the green optic material was only as long (around .023) as the thickness of the insert. I discussed the sight with many people and pictures were taken of my front sights. I also explained to people that asked about the sight other ways that the sight could be made.

Why I think the sight inserts do not conform to the rule.
Some of the fiber optic sight inserts that are used in a globe front sight (mostly Lyman sights) are the ones in question. Just as JohnHenry stated in another post "Fiber optic material may be used in or on the post or bead and may not be longer that its support blade and not to exceed 1 1/8". The Lyman insert is around .021 to .023 thick therefore the fiber optic material cannot be longer than .021 to .023 by the rule. In some of the sight inserts that are used the fiber optic material is much longer than the insert (its support blade) and is unsupported for most of its length. The support blade is not the whole globe sight.

This is the way that I understand the rule.
Sorry for any confusion or hard feelings.
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Re: Illegal fiber optic sight

Post by Cimarron Red »

Bit-Flipper,

Here is a complete quote of the NRA rule concerning FO sights for lever action silhouettes:

Fiber optic material may be used in or on the post or bead and may not be longer than its support blade and not to exceed 1 1/8” in length. In an anti-glare tube, the fiber optic material may not be any longer than the tube or extend outside the tube. The fiber optic sights do not need to be commercially manufactured.

So within an anti-glare tube -- Lyman 17A sight or a hood on an otherwise open sight -- the FO may be any length that does not extend outside the tube. The thin inserts used in the Lyman 17 A can in no way be considered a 'blade.'

Also, as you are no doubt aware, the equipment officers at the NRA Nationals at Raton for the last three years have routinely approved Lyman 17A sights whose FO lengths far exceed the thickness of the insert metal.
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Re: Illegal fiber optic sight

Post by GTS »

A little more background on the FO inserts. Prior to this year's CB nationals, I sent pictures of the inserts that I am making to Greg Conner. The reason being that I was delivering several sight inserts to competitors at the nationals and wanted to be sure they were legal to use. Mr. Conner was busy with the other national matches and did not respond until some time later. But he did respond with a phone call and we discussed the FO inserts at some length. As a result of that conversation, it is my understanding that in the case of a 17A globe sight, and other tube type sights, the globe itself serves as the support blade mentioned in the rules. In essence, without the support of the tube and nut, the insert could not function. That combined with the NRA tech boys passing all with flying colors, seems to me a question asked and answered. Pics of my inserts are below.

Greg Sullivan
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Re: Illegal fiber optic sight

Post by glen ring »

Bit Flipper.....It wasn't you and there's nothing you could ever do to cause any hard feelings.
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Re: Illegal fiber optic sight

Post by PhxShooter »

I know I'm going against the majority but I happen to agree with Bit-Flipper's analysis. From my point of view the key word in this debate is "support" as in support blade. The fiber-optic may not be any longer that the "support" blade. In this case I view the insert as the "support". The portion hanging from the back of the insert is unsupported and therefore not legal for competition. The sight in question had not yet been developed or at least wasn't widely available when the silhouette committee made its current ruling on FO sights. Since Greg doesn't make the rules the sight should probably be submitted to the committee for a final ruling. They may well bless it since it doesn't provide any advantage over a FO sight that is fully supported.

I know they have been allowed at the Nationals but to be honest that really doesn't make them legal. In 2012 I watched Greg hand a rule book to a guy that didn't even shoot CLA, and say, "Read this section and it will tell you what you need to know." The guy was then blessed as one of the inspectors. That very same inspector was going to disqualify a rifle because it had a vernier tang sight. He said those were only allowed on BPCR guns. A couple of us convinced him otherwise.

Would I ever protest someone using the front sight we're talking about? Absolutely NOT. Again in my opinion it doesn't provide any advantage over a FO blade sight. I view it as a technicality and a relatively small one at that. For the folks using them I would IMHO say go ahead and submit them to the committee for a ruling and if/when they bless them, it's the end of any complaints. Personally I can't shoot this game without the fiber optics. I just happen to put them on a blade sight.
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Re: Illegal fiber optic sight

Post by TexasSilhouette »

The first half of the paragraph addresses sights without tubes, the second half addresses sights with tubes.
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Jason
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Re: Illegal fiber optic sight

Post by Jason »

There is very specific wording to address the exact sight type being discussed used in the exact way being discussed.
In an anti-glare tube, the fiber optic material may not be any longer than the tube or extend outside the tube. The fiber optic sights do not need to be commercially manufactured.
It's allowed if the fiber is not longer than the anti-glare tube of the sight and if the fiber does not extend outside the tube. For once, there is no gray area to interpret. It's allowed.
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Re: Illegal fiber optic sight

Post by glen ring »

Thank you Jason...you always have the well researched answer. Now find me the perfect factory highpower silhouette rifle I can buy brass and bullets for please !
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Re: Illegal fiber optic sight

Post by High Speed »

Jason wrote:There is very specific wording to address the exact sight type being discussed used in the exact way being discussed.
In an anti-glare tube, the fiber optic material may not be any longer than the tube or extend outside the tube. The fiber optic sights do not need to be commercially manufactured.
It's allowed if the fiber is not longer than the anti-glare tube of the sight and if the fiber does not extend outside the tube. For once, there is no gray area to interpret. It's allowed.
That sounds pretty simple, even a simple minded person like me, thinks it's simple. Sorry, couldn't help it. It's the little things in life, that make it interesting.
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Re: Illegal fiber optic sight

Post by glen ring »

Phoenix Shooter and Bit Flipper are very seasoned shooters and have brought out points to consider and have a defense for in the event of a challenge. I agree with their views on a possible problem with the wording . Neither would file a challenge, but their experience to us "newer" competitors are a real asset in preparing us for the unlikely, but not impossible, challenge at one of our matches. I think their experience has helped us prepare.

Mark
I agree with you about the simple mind thing. I wish I could exist there, but my entire adult life has been dealing with even the most minute details written into any rule/policy .
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