FTF (dud cartridge) rule?

Centerfires, rimfires, pistol cartridges and everything in between.
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cedestech
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FTF (dud cartridge) rule?

Post by cedestech »

Figured while we were rehashing shooting out of order....

If you have a dud, recock or rack it out, shoot then rerack it and second strike it doesn't fire, can you replace the cartridge or do you have to take a missed animal for it?

Inquiring minds want to know....

:)
Emmett Dibble, Houston, Texas. Where's my buddy Jason? Keeper of electronic records and banisher of little pieces of paper?
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snaketail2
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Re: FTF (dud cartridge) rule?

Post by snaketail2 »

Ask for an Alibi and shoot the remaining targets in a separate relay (with all of us watching).

Michael
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cedestech
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Re: FTF (dud cartridge) rule?

Post by cedestech »

snaketail2 wrote: Mon Jun 25, 2018 11:27 am Ask for an Alibi and shoot the remaining targets in a separate relay (with all of us watching).

Michael
You know I am looking for more of an answer then that.... Are you allowed to replace the cartridge during your corse of fire with out asking for an alibi?

Factory only or reloads also?
Emmett Dibble, Houston, Texas. Where's my buddy Jason? Keeper of electronic records and banisher of little pieces of paper?
cedestech
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Re: FTF (dud cartridge) rule?

Post by cedestech »

cedestech wrote: Mon Jun 25, 2018 11:56 am
snaketail2 wrote: Mon Jun 25, 2018 11:27 am Ask for an Alibi and shoot the remaining targets in a separate relay (with all of us watching).

Michael
You know I am looking for more of an answer then that.... Are you allowed to replace the cartridge during your corse of fire with out asking for an alibi?

Factory only or reloads also?
Wife will tell you I'm an exhibitionist... a audience doesn't bother me a bit.... :)
Emmett Dibble, Houston, Texas. Where's my buddy Jason? Keeper of electronic records and banisher of little pieces of paper?
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psteiger
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Re: FTF (dud cartridge) rule?

Post by psteiger »

Wife will tell you I'm an exhibitionist... a audience doesn't bother me a bit.... :)
[/quote]

NOT true. try to watch him at work, he runs and hides.......
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snaketail2
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Re: FTF (dud cartridge) rule?

Post by snaketail2 »

Personal opinion
If I get a dud I eject and replace it. Still only 5 shots allowed...a dud is not a shot. Not counting hammer falls - just "bangs".
M
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PhxShooter
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Re: FTF (dud cartridge) rule?

Post by PhxShooter »

Here are the rules that apply to your question:


9.4 Defective Cartridge - Only those rounds showing obvious and normal striker impact on the primer without primer detonation shall be considered “Defective Cartridges”. Improperly loaded rounds shall NOT be accepted as “Alibis”. Improperly loaded rounds include those which will not chamber, are not properly charged with powder, incorporate reversed primers or do not operate normally. A defective cartridge as defined in this Rule allows a refire, but use of wrong ammunition does not allow a refire. Wrong Ammunition: Ammunition which cannot be inserted into the chamber of the firearm, or upon which the bolt or cylinder cannot be closed, regardless of whether or not the cartridge is the same caliber as the firearm in which it is attempted to be used.

9.5 Disabled Rifle - A disabled rifle is one: (a) That cannot be safely aimed or fired; (b) That has suffered damage so that it cannot be fired or will not function properly; or (c) That has suffered the loss of a sight or damage to the sights. Sights improperly adjusted do not constitute a disabled rifle. A rifle once declared disabled by the Range Officer shall not be used again for competition firing until the defect has been corrected and the rifle has been ruled as safe by the Chief Range Officer. (For procedure in case of a disabled rifle, see Rule 10.9.) 9.6 Malfunction - Failure of the rifle to function properly due to mechanical defects or to defective ammunition. Functional failures due to improper manual operation are not to be considered as malfunctions. (For procedure in case of a malfunction, see Rule 10.9.)

10.9 Procedure in Case of Defective Cartridge, Disabled Rifle or Malfunction -

If a cartridge fails to fire or a rifle fails to function, the competitor will call the Range Officer. The Range Officer, when satisfied that there is a defective cartridge (Rule 9.4), disabled rifle (Rule 9.5), or malfunction (Rule 9.6) will permit the competitor to replace the unfired cartridge, clear the jam or replace the disabled rifle and continue firing. It is not required that the Range Officer attempt to fire a cartridge before it is declared defective. The competitor will be given 30 seconds (one minute for Black Powder Cartridge Rifle) for each unfired round of the series. Such completion firing may be done immediately or on a later relay, at the Range Officer’s discretion. Only one such “alibi” for defective ammunition and one such “alibi” for a disabled rifle or malfunction will be allowed in a match. The “alibi limit” rule will not apply during shootoffs. The conduct of shootoffs will be left to the discretion of the Match Director.

The competitor may choose, instead, to replace the defective cartridge or to clear the malfunction and continue to fire. If this choice is made, the competitor forfeits the opportunity to claim an alibi and will not be given additional time.

Hope this answers the qustion :)
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cedestech
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Re: FTF (dud cartridge) rule?

Post by cedestech »

So.... I have 5 rounds in my round holder for a coarse of fire (bank of 5). During my "fire" section I have a dud, it will not fire. If I choose to grab a six round from my round holder in my shooting box and fire it at the fifth animal (assuming I just cycled that round out and discarded it) I'm OK? 6 rounds consumed but only 5 fired at the targets during that coarse of fire.

Out of the thousands of rounds I have produced just for this game I have only ever had one not fire on the second hammer drop. It was at a club match a few months ago. Complete dud primer. Going to the Nationals and just making sure....

:mrgreen:
Emmett Dibble, Houston, Texas. Where's my buddy Jason? Keeper of electronic records and banisher of little pieces of paper?
cedestech
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Re: FTF (dud cartridge) rule?

Post by cedestech »

psteiger wrote: Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:09 pm Wife will tell you I'm an exhibitionist... a audience doesn't bother me a bit.... :)
NOT true. try to watch him at work, he runs and hides.......
[/quote]

I just get stage fright around you....
Emmett Dibble, Houston, Texas. Where's my buddy Jason? Keeper of electronic records and banisher of little pieces of paper?
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Taps
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Re: FTF (dud cartridge) rule?

Post by Taps »

cedestech wrote: Mon Jun 25, 2018 7:34 pm So.... I have 5 rounds in my round holder for a coarse of fire (bank of 5). During my "fire" section I have a dud, it will not fire. If I choose to grab a six round from my round holder in my shooting box and fire it at the fifth animal (assuming I just cycled that round out and discarded it) I'm OK? 6 rounds consumed but only 5 fired at the targets during that coarse of fire.

Out of the thousands of rounds I have produced just for this game I have only ever had one not fire on the second hammer drop. It was at a club match a few months ago. Complete dud primer. Going to the Nationals and just making sure....

:mrgreen:
Yes, you can replace the defective round and continue shooting. Just make sure that your spotter/scorer is made aware of the situation. If you have plenty of time left and are confident that you can complete the bank this is the best option, it negates the need to have an alibi. Just bear in mind the following:
The competitor may choose, instead, to replace the defective cartridge or to clear the malfunction and continue to fire. If this choice is made, the competitor forfeits the opportunity to claim an alibi and will not be given additional time.

If alibis are kept to a minimum, the match runs smoother and quicker. As anyone who has shot at Raton knows, an early finish to the match helps avoid the almost "inevitable" daily storms.
Also,
Last year I believe we had people claiming alibis for "malfunctions" when the root cause was ammo that would not chamber when correctly loaded through the magazine due to being too long. This is not a valid reason for an alibi, please refer to rule 9.4

9.4 Defective Cartridge - Only those rounds showing obvious and normal striker impact on the primer without primer detonation shall be considered “Defective Cartridges”. Improperly loaded rounds shall NOT be accepted as “Alibis”. Improperly loaded rounds include those which will not chamber, are not properly charged with powder, incorporate reversed primers or do not operate normally. A defective cartridge as defined in this Rule allows a re-fire, but use of wrong ammunition does not allow a re-fire. Wrong Ammunition: Ammunition which cannot be inserted into the chamber of the firearm, or upon which the bolt or cylinder cannot be closed, regardless of whether or not the cartridge is the same caliber as the firearm in which it is attempted to be used.

And, NO, you cannot just "drop it into the chamber" because the rounds wont come up out of the magazine. We had that one last year also. All line officers will be instructed to keep an eye on this.

Your "friendly" man in the tower,
Dan
Taps
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Re: FTF (dud cartridge) rule?

Post by cedestech »

Taps wrote: Tue Jun 26, 2018 3:32 pm
And, NO, you cannot just "drop it into the chamber" because the rounds wont come up out of the magazine. We had that one last year also. All line officers will be instructed to keep an eye on this.

Your "friendly" man in the tower,
Dan
That answers my questions brilliantly! :)

Also I understand about single loading. I single load through the loading gate, feeding the round from the magazine as per the rules during a match.
Emmett Dibble, Houston, Texas. Where's my buddy Jason? Keeper of electronic records and banisher of little pieces of paper?
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