Reloading tips for accurate 357 rifle loads

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Jason
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Reloading tips for accurate 357 rifle loads

Post by Jason »

My Cimarron 1873 rifle in 357 Magnum is getting ordered tomorrow, so I'm starting to accumulate all the necessary reloading gear now. My goal with this rifle is to use it monthly for our pistol cartridge lever action silhouette matches and occasionally for centerfire lever action silhouette matches. I'm accustomed to reloading various precision rifle cartridges for different matches and reloading pistol cartridges for reliable higher speed/volume shooting, but reloading a pistol cartridge for accuracy is a new area for me. I'm trying to figure out the middle ground between them.

I'm planning to start with 125gr Hornady XTP bullets for all pistol cartridge animals and centerfire chickens, possibly centerfire pigs and turkeys. I'm torn on what bullet to use on centerfire rams, leaning somewhat toward 180gr Hornady XTP bullets. Is there a better heavy bullet to go with that will give a bit better odds of toppling the centerfire rams? I'm leaning away from lead bullets as I have no interest in even worrying about leading of the barrel.

Here's my current loading plan for the 5000 new Starline brass that I have already purchased, using my LnL AP progressive press. For future loadings of the brass, there would be these three steps prior to the sequence above. With the full knowledge that our lever action targets are relatively large and there's no realistic expectation or need for <1 moa groups, is there anything that I should change in that sequence above? Should I ever (first time or future loadings) go to the trouble of trimming the brass? I don't intend to use any brass other than this single group of Starline brass, and it's fairly consistent in length, only 0.002" difference across the 20 or so pieces that I measured. If so, should I also chamfer and deburr the brass? Is expanding the case mouth and then crimping going to take care of that well enough? What about other laborious-with-little-affect-on-practical-accuracy brass prep stuff that I usually do for match rifle brass like uniforming primer pockets and flash holes? I don't even know how I would apply my usual setting of rifle dies to only bump the shoulder back 0.002" on a shoulderless pistol case that headspaces off a rim. :)

What about powder charge, seating depth and crimp testing? What order should load development go? For precision rifle cartridges, I start with powder charge and then fine tune it with seating depth testing, never crimping on any precision rifle round. It seems to be a universal opinion that 357 magnum rounds need a solid crimp, with heavier loads often having a heavy crimp mentioned along with them. Should I just go with the COL that the Hornady manual says and work on powder charge and then crimp to find tune it, or should I have seating depth tuning (within limits that will cycle reliably) following powder charge and only then work on crimp testing?

Are there steps that I'm missing here? Has anyone done serious testing with any/all of those above and can share experience on which ones help and which ones are just a waste of time and effort? :lol:

Thanks in advance for any guidance anyone may be able to provide.
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Re: Reloading tips for accurate 357 rifle loads

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sent you a pm. did you get it???

p
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Re: Reloading tips for accurate 357 rifle loads

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psteiger wrote: Tue May 23, 2017 6:17 pm sent you a pm. did you get it???

p
Yes, but it was only a quote of my post above. I was hoping for a bit more. :lol:
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Re: Reloading tips for accurate 357 rifle loads

Post by psteiger »

fudge. cliff note version

I've been shooting one for 6 years in cf. 158 jacketed bulk bullet for cpt, 180 Sierra tournament master for rams.
H110 13.5g cpt, 13.2g rams. Rams load is a max load. The 1873 isn't a very strong action so be mindful. I run about a 70% ko on the rams. I've tried a few cast 180's and they fare no better. Less accuracy as well. When rams fall, they always fall forward. Occasionally I ring a deep set pig with a center hit. I crimp them in the groove, I tried playing around with the length, but you don't get much benefit with this rifle, plus it's a pita if you load them a touch long, and they jam.
Remember you launching a pistol bullet at rifle distances. They don't fly as well. With my tang sight, I get about 6 inches for 10 shots at 200 yds.

I've been trying a 38-55 and the 260g bullet is a game changer, but my resultant spazmotic flinch has actually lowered my scores.

HTH, YMMV....etc
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Re: Reloading tips for accurate 357 rifle loads

Post by Tlee »

psteiger wrote: Wed May 24, 2017 9:08 am fudge. cliff note version

I've been shooting one for 6 years in cf. 158 jacketed bulk bullet for cpt, 180 Sierra tournament master for rams.
H110 13.5g cpt, 13.2g rams. Rams load is a max load. The 1873 isn't a very strong action so be mindful. I run about a 70% ko on the rams. (Snip)....
Agreed on all points... the 180gr projectile is, from my experience, the practical limit of the 1:30 twist used in the 1873s and the Winchester/Rossi/etc rifles chambered in 38/357. I've even seen a few that wouldn't shoot a 180, but could shoot a (now discontinued) 170g decent.

Regarding the action strength/concerns... I found LilGun to produce more velocity whilst keeping the pressure significantly lower than H110/W296. In my wife's 357 for CLA we use 14g of it with 158-160g jacketed for CPTs, as we found 125g to frequently not take the pig reliably no matter how fast you drove them... After all, it is a pistol Bullet designed to expand at low velocity. We even lost a chicken or 2 with the 125g bullets. We use 13.6g of LilGun for the heavier projectiles on Rams (and occasionally the turkeys, IF it is windy). We're getting pretty consistent 4" groups at 200 with it, however our Marlin has a 1:16 twist, that probably accounts for slightly better groups with the heavier bullets.

A few years ago we moved to a gaschecked lead Boolit for the Rams when 180g jacketed got hard to find and we're seeing slightly better than the 70% Pat sees, likely due to "spit ball effect" of the softer lead giving a few milliseconds longer dwell time (purely my opinion/theory based on results). We also found a couple 200/205g GCFN lead Boolits that will stabilize well in our 357, and are even more reliable on the Rams. However I've yet to see a 1:30 twist stabilize them at all.

Jason... IMO, it'd take a pretty talented shooter (such as Pat) to win CLA at the state or national level with a 357, but my opinion is that folks should always shoot what they have, regardless... Personally I think way too many folks worry way too much about "having the right/most popular gun", when they should just shoot what they've got until that "perfect one" comes along. Plus, as you're aware, the 357 is a lot easier/cheaper to load for than the 30/30. I won't hesitate to use the 357 for a local CLA match, or even as a backup to my 30/30. BTW, I also use a 1948 336A for CLA, which is absolutely one of the most accurate rifles I've ever owned or shot, however... it is a PITB to load for, compared to the 357. AND, even 30/30s aren't 100% on Rams. I've seen 170g bullets running 2000fps ring Rams, particularly if there's even a slight breeze to the backside of the target.

:ymcowboy:

- Tim
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Re: Reloading tips for accurate 357 rifle loads

Post by Tlee »

Jason wrote: Tue May 23, 2017 3:53 pm My Cimarron 1873 rifle in 357 Magnum is getting ordered tomorrow, so I'm starting to accumulate all the necessary reloading gear now. My goal with this rifle is to use it monthly for our pistol cartridge lever action silhouette matches and occasionally for centerfire lever action silhouette matches. I'm accustomed to reloading various precision rifle cartridges for different matches and reloading pistol cartridges for reliable higher speed/volume shooting, but reloading a pistol cartridge for accuracy is a new area for me. I'm trying to figure out the middle ground between them.

I'm planning to start with 125gr Hornady XTP bullets for all pistol cartridge animals and centerfire chickens, possibly centerfire pigs and turkeys. I'm torn on what bullet to use on centerfire rams, leaning somewhat toward 180gr Hornady XTP bullets. Is there a better heavy bullet to go with that will give a bit better odds of toppling the centerfire rams? I'm leaning away from lead bullets as I have no interest in even worrying about leading of the barrel.

(snip)...
Jason -

1st... Congratulations on taking ownership of one of the nicest leverguns ever built!

2nd... Loading 357 for accuracy is one of, if not, the easiest cartridges I've ever loaded. I've literally tested more combinations of powders and projectiles in that caliber than all other calibers, combined. Fun to shoot, almost as much fun to load and experiment with (if you're into loading/testing). Every step you described in your original post will net you good/accurate ammo, once you find recipes the gun likes. I have a couple different things I do in loading 357 (primarily involving the Lyman M die) but it's more a personal preference thing.... I've loaded thousands of rounds without it too.

I covered use of the 357 in CLA in my response above to Pat's post. If you haven't already, please read it as most of the verbiage was for your benefit, and anything Pat tells you is golden (especially anything related to silhouettes).

Although I primarily load 357 for the Marlin(s), I have owned, loaded for, and tested a Rossi 92 chambered in 357 (same barrel twist rate as the Uberti), along with testing in a few buddies' model 92s. Feel free to contact me if you'd like the load data I found to work best in those guns, primarily for PCCLA. I will say the CLA loads in the previous post worked for 158gr to 170gr projectiles. And only one of the Rossi's we tested didn't shoot the 180g projectiles decent enough for CLA use. BTW... The 180gr XTPs work, and I have tested a few of the Sierras Pat mentioned only for accuracy. They were about the same accuracy-wise, but at the time they were nearly impossible to find (I found a partial box at an old gun store, in of all places... Raton NM). Another I tested, and actually used in a couple matches, were the Hornady 170 and 180gr JTC-Sil. They were on par with the 180g XTP in accuracy, and MAY have been very slightly more reliable at taking the rams due to bullet design/construction. I only shot a couple hundred of those before not being able to find any again.

Lastly, regarding your comment about lead projectiles, and possible barrel leading... After decades of loading nothing but jacketed, I had the same concerns, however I discovered mine were totally unfounded. After extensive range testing of literally hundreds of rounds involving dozens of combinations, I found that as long as I used GAS-Checked lead that are of proper diameter (.358-.359"), I experience practically zero barrel leading/contamination. At the very MOST, I'd say cleaning requirements are on par with what I see with jacketed... Possibly even less. Contrary to "some experts" advise, I even regularly intermingle jacketed and gas-checked lead rounds during a match using the 357 (jacketed for CPTs, GC lead for rams) with zero negative effects on accuracy for either type. I've repeated similar testing for my 336A in 30/30 and, while I now shoot only gas-checked lead in it for silhouette, I won't hesitate to intermingle jacketed in it. I've a local "bragging rights" match a couple times a year where we shoot out to 500 yards, and I found a certain jacketed projectile (that's not legal for silhouette) to work VERY well (near MOA) out of the 336A, even if I fail to clean it after hundreds of rounds of GC lead.

my .02,

:ymcowboy:

-Tim
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Re: Reloading tips for accurate 357 rifle loads

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Thanks for all of the great info, Pat and Tim. ^:)^

Few quick points I'd like to clarify and/or ask for more help on.

First, the barrel twist rate on the Cimarron rifle that I am getting is 1:18.75 and not 1:30 (source: Cimarron website) so it should shoot the heavier bullets fine. The 180-grain XTP bullets are readily available now, as are the 180-grain Sierra Tournament Master bullets. The JTC-SIL bullets are discontinued, though, and I haven't been able to find anyone with a remaining stash of them to buy. Here are the three bullets that I've considered for CLA rams, that happen to all be available at MidwayUSA for price comparison.

Hornady 180-grain XTP HP, $22.49/100
Sierra 170-grain Tournament Master FMJ RN, $27.99/100
Sierra 180-grain Tournament Master FMJ FN, $24.99/100

I also noticed these lead Cast Performance 180-grain GC FN 0.358" bullets but was surprised that at $28.49/100, they are more expensive than the Hornady or Sierra jacketed 180-grain bullets. I'd consider a 200+ grain gas-checked lead bullet if I had lighter gas-checked lead bullets that I used for everything else. I have a pretty strong bias against using lead bullets from trying to deal with the lube and stuff, especially on a hot day, with muzzleloaders. I also have the "don't mix lead and jacketed bullets" pretty strongly ingrained into my mindset, but that's admittedly from using lead bullets without gas checks.

Second, is there something better about the Lyman M die than the expander that's in the Hornady 3-die set? I bought a Lyman M die (that I don't use much anymore) for my 30-30, but that's because rifle die sets don't come with expanders. What am I missing by not having the Lyman M die for 357?

Last, since I'm getting an 1873 that's an older and slightly less robust design than the newer models, I am trying to be mindful of high pressure loads. I currently have Titegroup, H110, CFE Pistol, VV 3N38, Clays and Trail Boss powders for pistols. It sounds like I need go track down some Lil'Gun before I start working up CLA ram loads. From Hodgdon's load data, that Lil'Gun powder is great at getting velocity with the 158+ grain bullets while keeping pressure lower.

I'm starting to think that I'll need three total loads.
  • A "powder puff" load for pistol cartridge animals, and possibly CLA chickens* (likely start testing with 125-grain XTP or JSP and Titegroup/CFE Pistol)
  • A "more power" load for CLA chickens*/pigs/turkeys (likely start testing with 158-grain XTP or Sierra JSP and Lil-Gun)
  • An "I'm giving it all she's got, captain!" load for CLA rams (likely start testing with Lil'Gun/H110 and 180-grain XTPs or Sierras)
Does that sound about right?
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Re: Reloading tips for accurate 357 rifle loads

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Jason wrote: Thu May 25, 2017 11:07 am Thanks for all of the great info, Pat and Tim. ^:)^

Few quick points I'd like to clarify and/or ask for more help on.

First, the barrel twist rate on the Cimarron rifle that I am getting is 1:18.75 and not 1:30 (source: Cimarron website) so it should shoot the heavier bullets fine.
(Snip)....


Second, is there something better about the Lyman M die than the expander that's in the Hornady 3-die set? I bought a Lyman M die (that I don't use much anymore) for my 30-30, but that's because rifle die sets don't come with expanders. What am I missing by not having the Lyman M die for 357?

....(snip)....

I'm starting to think that I'll need three total loads.
  • A "powder puff" load for pistol cartridge animals, and possibly CLA chickens* (likely start testing with 125-grain XTP or JSP and Titegroup/CFE Pistol)
  • A "more power" load for CLA chickens*/pigs/turkeys (likely start testing with 158-grain XTP or Sierra JSP and Lil-Gun)
  • An "I'm giving it all she's got, captain!" load for CLA rams (likely start testing with Lil'Gun/H110 and 180-grain XTPs or Sierras)
Does that sound about right?
That is fantastic news about the 1:18.75 twist! I'd heard from someplace it was the same as Winchester and Rossi's, which is 1:30.... I'd love to hear if that's what it measures with the cleaning rod check, or if it's a typo (at least one manufacturer had their 38/357's twist rate wrong on their website for over a year after introducing it). If 1:18.75 is correct, I know what my next rifle to buy will be!

Regarding the Lyman M die... it has a dual step expander, which IMO, makes for more concentric seating because the base of the bullet starts out aligned properly. I believe it also allows for more consistent neck tension. Although I do have a Hornady LNL progressive, I don't currently use any Hornady dies.... nothing against them, I just (for whatever reason) seemed to wind up with other brands. I've used both Redding, Lee, RCBS, and the Lyman expander, and while I've seen no appreciable difference in group sizes with each, I've better confidence in the neck expansion with the Lyman.... just a personal preference, YMMV.

On the selection of magnum pistol powders; I shot only H110/W296 literally for decades and felt it was the gold standard for magnum pistol loads. However, while I could always achieve fantastic groups using it, it always seemed "tenth of a grain finicky" with different projectiles, powder lot numbers, and primers (even different lots of the same primer brand/type). Starting with shooting it in leverguns, I was also frequently seeing pressure signs with it even with mid-level loads, so I seldom ventured anywhere near max loads. Lastly, it was when I experienced a couple of my only 2 hangfires I ever experienced with it that I started looking for another magnum powder.
Long story short... LilGun won out, for me. It's not at all primer or tenth of a grain finicky, and I've probably loaded a wider range of weights with it than any other powder. I sincerely cannot recall a bad group that I've ever shot with it, regardless of load level. While the 14g for 158 or 160g projectile is what was most accurate in my Marlin, I also saw very acceptable groups at both extreme ends of the chart. The only downside I've ever heard of with it is Freedom Arms cautions use of it in their revolvers due to a risk of forcing cone erosion at the cylinder gap. That was interesting to hear, as I heard the same concern for decades regarding H110/W296 and other magnum powders in S&W revolvers, and never personally observed the issue. Since we've no air gap in the leverguns or the T/C I've used it in, I feel there's little risk using it.

Lastly, I think you're dead on regarding the 3 loads.... please let us know what works in that Rifle... you definitely have my curiosity aroused regarding the twist rate.

Another .02,

:ymcowboy:

- Tim
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Re: Reloading tips for accurate 357 rifle loads

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Sounds like Tim got it all covered pretty good. He is a wealth of knowledge. I forgot to mention, length on the brass is important. It effects crimp. Longer = more crimp. Keep them close to the same length. Also I use Federal Small Rifle Magnum Pistol primers. I first used them because that's all I could get, now I think they give me more consistent loads. My Uberti doesn't like 125's. I tested a bunch, it hates them, as does my 1866 in 38 Sp. I don't use them for those guns.

I like cast bullets. I agree with Tim as it's about dwell time on the target and the transfer of momentum. For me, the Sierra 180's were the most accurate bullet I tried. Cast bullets are a whole nother story as you have to have them soft enough to seal the bore but hard enough not to vaporize and foul the bore. They have new coatings and stuff. Missouri Bullet Company are some great guys who know a lot about cast bullets. Look at their website. I use their 158g RN #15 in my 38 Sp. It kicks but!!!! No lead fouling. I'm going to try some of their new coated bullets next. I have tested their bullets back to back with others that look EXACTLY the same and they can't match their accuracy. With the older action design, I just wasn't comfortable trying 200g bullets.

I think the Sierra 170g TM are for pistols only. Check that. You could load 2, chamber one, shoot, load...etc just keeping one in the chamber, and one in the tube.

I use Redding dies. So I can't comment on yours.

I've scoped my rifles and I've seen no bore erosion with 110/296. I plan on trying Tim's Lil gun.

Good Luck.

If your buddy is looking for a PC gun, Emmett Dibble has an extra Rossi 92 in 357 mag. It's got the 1/30 tw barrel and it LOVES 125g bullets. He shot the 39 last year with one. Woulda gotten a 40 if his spotter was better........just sayin......
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Re: Reloading tips for accurate 357 rifle loads

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Tlee wrote: Thu May 25, 2017 5:01 pm That is fantastic news about the 1:18.75 twist! I'd heard from someplace it was the same as Winchester and Rossi's, which is 1:30.... I'd love to hear if that's what it measures with the cleaning rod check, or if it's a typo (at least one manufacturer had their 38/357's twist rate wrong on their website for over a year after introducing it). If 1:18.75 is correct, I know what my next rifle to buy will be!
I think 1:18.75 twist is the standard for 1873s now. That's the twist rate that the current Miroku-made Winchesters have also.

http://www.winchesterguns.com/products/ ... -grip.html
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Re: Reloading tips for accurate 357 rifle loads

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I stumbled across 5 boxes of Hornady 180 gr, .357 CL - SIL bullets. Have any of you any experience with these?
I plan to shoot them in a Uberti.
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Re: Reloading tips for accurate 357 rifle loads

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dhatch wrote: Thu May 25, 2017 7:18 pm I stumbled across 5 boxes of Hornady 180 gr, .357 CL - SIL bullets. Have any of you any experience with these?
I plan to shoot them in a Uberti.
I don't have any experience with them, but I'd like to get some. How about you sell them to me and I'll tell you how they shoot? :D
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Re: Reloading tips for accurate 357 rifle loads

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Well, I got them for $20 a box. Reckon I got beat on that deal? B-)
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Re: Reloading tips for accurate 357 rifle loads

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I was told that they were designed for silhouette. They are flat nosed, but I haven't ever seen anything like them. They are not hollow points.
They look like the ends are crimped with a small spot of lead in the center.
They've also been discontinued.
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Re: Reloading tips for accurate 357 rifle loads

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I've heard of them from reading online forum topics from pistol silhouette shooters, but never used them myself. I know they're discontinued. I was joking above about buying them, but if you ever do decide you want to sell them I'd buy them just to see if they really were better for CLA rams or if it's a case of "they don't make silhouette bullets like they used to!" :)
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