Proposed rule changes at the competitors meeting in Raton, NM

[lone ringer]

I just came back from Raton, NM where I attended the rifle and cowboy lever action rifle silhouette championships. I was pleased at the amount of shooters that attended the cowboy matches (over 160) and saddened at the number of shooters at the HP ones (around 50).
The reason for this posting is to let you know that a few shooters at the Cowboy competitors meeting petition the two committee members in attendance for a change on the rule that says that only post, bead sigh and fiber optic sights are allowed in cowboy. One person in particular was making a point that round inserts have been in use for more than 100 years. Lee O’neil who is a member of the silhouette committee spoke at length on the topic and told us that a discussion regarding the use of round inserts on front sights like the Lyman 17 had been tabled at the last year’s Silhouette Committee meetings pending further studies but told us that it was pretty much a done deal that they would be allowed to be used in the near future.

I do not believe that a lot of people share the opinion that round inserts are needed in cowboy rifle silhouette and only a fraction of the shooters at the match attended the competitors meeting. I do believe that the use of fiber optic was a good concession for those of us that have poor sight but enough is enough.

Another topic was discussed at the meeting and that was the use of aftermarket barrels that if allowed would convert our sport into an equipment race.

I respect the opinion of others that have different views as mine but I have been shooting rifle silhouette nationals since 1978 when we had more than 300 shooters at the nationals shooting one rifle class to about 50 shooters in 2016 and I would not want the same thing to happen to Cowboy the only silhouette discipline that is growing and thriving mostly due to the simple rules that govern our sport.

It is my opinion that Cowboy LA rifle silhouette is not broken and does not need to be fixed by changing its rules.

I will not get involved in arguments or debates with others that oppose my views I am only trying to inform to the ones that did not attend the competitors meeting or the Cowboy nationals what when on at the meeting and I am urging those to send their suggestions to the Silhouette Committee either for or against the proposed rule changes.
Tony Tello

[glen ring]

You are a true gentleman Tony and I doubt anyone that knows you will argue with you.I am 100% against after market barrels.

[dustinflint]

I don't really care either way but I will say that I used a round insert on my Smallbore cowboy rifle once and shot two perfect scores back to back with it. If they are legal EVERYONE will use them.

Dustin

[TheBugFather]

Being a long time friend of Tony's, I have no problems with openly disagreeing with my friend... But I believe that what he says rings with much truth.

Just so everyone understands, the front aperture inserts, like the ones used in Olympic type discipline front sights are what they are talking about, including the plastic ones. As Dustin points out, they work very well.

I don't believe that this follows the sprit of the game and sport. Sure BP rifle has played with them, but I think of that as more of a target/benchrest type shooting than an offhand rifle sport. Kind of like when handgun silhouette started. It was a standing only sport that was a challenge and would have 500+ entries at a match. Now it is all but dead, with 15 or more variations and an equipment race that only a few can afford. I started and still shoot handgun silhouette, but also realize that it has almost no new shooter base and that almost everyone shoots a 40 and things are only settled by the few that stick around for shoot offs at the very end of the match.

I too think that the post or bead sight with the addition of fiber optics was enough for our sport and with considerations for older eyes.

As far as aftermarket barrels are concerned, I have no problem finding rifles and I have no problems with replacing a shot out barrel with another identical factory barrel on a rifle. The major problem is who is keeping records of what barrel is a correct match for which rifle, ect. We all know this is going on right now, but to open it up would be a free for all, with no end in sight.

I feel that Cowboy Action Shooting (SASS) has leveled off and may be on the decline. I'm sure a large number of rifles are still out there with many more to follow.

I just caution against the opening of Pandora's Box. The same equipment race that turned high power hunters rifle into an equipment race that now, if you went to a gun store and bought a "hunting rifle" and took it to a silhouette match, you would be laughed off the firing line.

Please don't fix what is not broken.

Thanks, Dennis O.

Ps. I'm still working in the photos and will have them up in a few days. Thanks.

[AMB]

CLA is dead, will be gone the way of Hunters Pistol. Doubt it? Count up how many Non-Senior competitors were at Nationals. Should be sponsored by AARP (I'm a member by the way ) I have no problem with allowing apertures, if it encourages our seniors to continue to shoot as they become Super Seniors. May keep the game around a while longer, won't change results because as Dustin said every one will use them. Regarding after market barrels, again I really don't care I won't feel disadvantaged, but you will kill the sport faster. Al Bean

[cslcAl]

If you have feelings one way or the other, you should write a letter to the silhouette committe stating your opinion. They do get read, and will will be used in consideration of a ruling.

Al Foust

[twidpa]

Every shooting sport is infected with a disease called "equipment creep." Some of them die from it. Some of them are permanently disabled and some seem to live on with little issue. It is hard to make everyone happy. The rules committee needs to make rules that allow for old eyes, young shooters, old guns, new guns, hard competitor, casual shooters, safety and current equipment availability. Somebody will not like whatever the decision may be.
T

[SteveD]

I have no horse in this race. I do not shoot CLA and do not have an interest in shooting CLA. I have have always had a profound enjoyment when shooting Rifle Silhouette and my hands full trying to do better.

I do however see an opportunity to climb up onto my soapbox and pontificate.

I share your feelings about avoiding fomenting an 'equipment race'. In my opinion, Hunter Rifle Silhouette is a joke and the 'equipment race' that was permitted there is responsible for the above noted decline of Rifle Silhouette. Newcomers to the sport don't feel or understand, reality aside, that they can be competitive with an 'off the rack' hunting style rifle. Hunter rifle should be the entry level and feeder system. It should be an opportunity for most anyone to get started in Rifle Silhouette with commonly available rifles in the style and spirit of off the rack hunting rifles be the requirement. Custom actions, customs stocks and a two stage trigger with a 2 oz pull on the second stage on a hunting rifle being legal, please. But I digress.

That being said I'm not seeing a rational objection to excluding a piece of equipment, said round insert, that is 'cowboy era appropriate', especially when a fiber optic site which is most certainly not 'cowboy era appropriate' is permitted.

[TheBugFather]

Thank you Al, I turned in my suggestion form at the match, but also plan on following it up with a letter.

I enjoy this sport, just tying to keep it from getting out of control and dying. Once the cat is let out of the bag, we will have no way to put it back.

I think that people should know what is going on in this sport and encourage them to let the committee know how they feel. For or against, I have no problem being in the majority or minority of this discussion, just be informed and be heard.

Thanks, Dennis

[cedestech]

For what it's worth, I don't understand either of the two rule proposals?

I am old but not as old as some and shoot a lot of silhouette but maybe not as long as some....

The sight. I do understand the issue (have it myself) with seeing the front sight but where do you draw the line? 4X scope? 6X? Honestly, if you can not see a fat blade or bead with fiber optic insert then really, how much more "time" is a round aperture insert going to buy you. If your scores are seriously effected by your eyesight then protest for a downgrade in classification... or just be happy going to the range and being with friends and shooting.

The barrel thing I really have a hard time wrapping my head around. You can purchase very competitive rifles in all three classes of lever action in the $4-600 range all day long. Yes there are much more expensive rifles but I honestly don't feel they give that much of an advantage. Owning a very nice rifle may make you feel better or you may enjoy it, both of which are perfectly acceptable, but it isn't necessary to be competitive in this game. I am assuming that the barrel rule is because people want to take match barrels and graft them to lever actions. The amount of machine work would have to put parts and labor close to buying a new rifle.

I agree the problem is that the sport is dying because the lack of "new" shooters, I offer that making it more expensive in reality or perception to compete will only bring it about quicker.

Your mileage may very and in my humble opinion....

[frankmako]

that is all we need another equipment race and gaming the system like what you see in smallbore hunter rifle.

[44 mag]

As many have said I have no problem with the aperture front site insert. This may keep some of our older shooters shooting. As far as rebarreling I feel this would be a big mistake. It will turn CLA into a equipment race just like SB and HP. We don't need this as there are plenty of guns available out there for this game. I did send it my form to the NRA expressing my opinion on this. Lets just hope that all of our letters don't fall on deaf ears. Mike Haynes

[GTS]

I think I need to jump in here and clarify a few things. I am the one that brought up the question on barrels. Now everyone needs to pay close attention to this, I DID NOT ASK FOR AFTER MARKET BARRELS!!!

What I requested the committee to address was a simple clarification of the rule, which I feel is a little ambiguous with regard to the barrel. The current description reads "original barrel", which I feel could be interpreted either way. It could mean "the" original barrel, or it could mean "an" original barrel. That was my question! I asked that the committee look at the rule, and add one of those 2 words before the word "barrel". If they decide on "the", then it will clearly mean the barrel original to the rifle. If they decide on "an", then you would be allowed to replace an old worn out barrel with a factory barrel, but not some other after market barrel. That was never my intent, but it seems like people only hear what they want to hear, and in fact, I had a hard time getting Mr. O'Neill to understand my question, who actually suggested to do it anyway because "who would know". Well, I would know.

My request was an effort to get some of the great old rifles back into action. I like old rifles, 100 years+. Sometimes an old black powder barrel, or a poorly cared for smokeless barrel is beyond help. Yes, you can reline, I know that. But if you can find an original barrel, which show up on EBay more often than you would think, then your old rifle is back in business.

My reason for asking for a clarification is pretty simple, I want to play within the rules. So let me say again, I DID NOT ASK FOR AFTER MARKET BARRELS!!!, and I would be opposed to allowing after market barrels, although I don't think it would start the "equipment race" mentioned previously. As one our local club members is fond of saying, "It ain't about the bow and arrow, it's about the Indian".

Tony, I think you clearly misunderstood my question. The talk did turn towards after market barrels, and did my best to head those comments off by reiterating that I did not want the committee to consider replacing barrels with after market barrels, only factory original barrels.

Greg Sullivan

[lone ringer]

Hello Greg, Sorry if you thought I was talking about you. I understood perfectly what you where trying to ask Lee O'Neil and in fact I am not opposed to the use of original FACTORY barrels to replace worn out barrels. I did not mention that discussion or mention you by name. Right after that discussion Lee said that some unnamed gunsmith that was in attendance at the match had said to him that he had replaced at least 12 rifles that where at the Nationals, meaning he had replaced the barrels with new barrels and put the correct marking and everything to make them look like the original factory barrels. Then some one else asked why he could not do the same thing that Turnbull was doing and if you remember a vote was taken to see how many of us would want the committee to change the rule so aftermarket barrels would be allowed to be used in our sport. That is what I am opposed to THE USE OF AFTERMARKET BARRELS not original factory ones.

[glen ring]

My wife didn't start shooting competitively until she was 50. She's a common sense kind of person and instantly took to and liked lever action silhouette. She has been called upon to occasionally shoot a critter and she can see the value of competing with her lever action rifles.

I bought a Kimber 22 for her and told her about small bore silhouette. We shot a match in Arkansas to make sure we were classified and then went to the Nationals this year in Raton.

She felt like her wood stocked Kimber was not up to the task, after seeing all the "Race car" custom guns with stickers and designs on them.


The custom leather shooting vests were silly to to her as they were expensive and used in " Hunter Class'.


She told me she would shoot lever action as her main sport and only shoot small bore if I did...but she stated she would NEVER spend that kind of money on a gun or vest.

Me either and I'll bet new shooters think the same thing.

I just wondered why "Hunter" class was called "Hunter" since I can't see anyone with a metal flaked stocked, bright barreled , 36 power scoped .22 hunting anything.

Leave the CLA alone , let old guys have whatever front sight they need to continue shooting and absolutely NO aftermarket barrels.