IMR-4759 in 30-30

Centerfires, rimfires, pistol cartridges and everything in between.
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glen ring
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IMR-4759 in 30-30

Post by glen ring »

I have several pounds of 4759 I need to use. I shoot Jacketed bullets. Do any of you use a filler with this powder and jacketed bullets ?
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boats
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Re: IMR-4759 in 30-30

Post by boats »

No filler, it's one of the best less than case full powders for mid power loads. Shame they dropped it from production. If you want a lot of 4759 data look at old manuals & SR # 80 it's the older powder 4759 replaced.

Don't look for velocity though it's been said it will spike if pushed too hard. I always kept it to about 1600 fps never had a problem

My light 30/30, 32/40, & 38/55 loads now use 4227 which many moved to when 4759 became hard to find. Charges about the same 4227/4759

Boats
hermit5
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Re: IMR-4759 in 30-30

Post by hermit5 »

You might want to sell that to someone who needs it for a purpose instead of just using it up.
It makes a great reduced hunting load for wild turkey in 243&308 with FMJ,where legal.
glen ring
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Re: IMR-4759 in 30-30

Post by glen ring »

Thanks Boats . I'm getting just under three inch groups at Turkey distance with it and any bullet in my Marlin xlr.

I was wondering if a filler would tighten the groups up but I can't hold 3 inches at 150 yards so I think I'll leave well enough alone. I run the bullets right around 1600fps and the load is perfect for me.

Hermit . I'm using it in matches. I've got about 8 pounds of the stuff so I should be good for a while. I tried the FMJ load in a .243 back in the 70's for wild turkey and didn't like the results.
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boats
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Re: IMR-4759 in 30-30

Post by boats »

If you look at articles published in the late 60's some by the NRA others by Cast Bullet Assocation lot about fillers to improve grouping. Kapok Cotton etc. Most of us that shoot big case single shots have come to the conclusion fillers cause trouble. Charlie Dell, well know Schuetzen shooter had a rail gun outfit with screw in barrels. Tested, then cut the chamber off and re-chambered He could ring a chamber and ruin the barrel on demand using fillers.

If you can get a copy of Phil Sharpe's "Complete Guide to Handloading" about 1937 edition lot of information on reduced loads using SR # 80 and other powders, # 80 being one of his favorates. After reading it 20 plus years ago wrote Ken Waters of Handloader magazine, at the time he would answer questions with a hand typed letter for a few bucks fee. Pre internet ! He's the one who told me 4759 was formulated to replace SR # 80. Not the exact same powder however it performs the same. Suggested using it cutting back 10 % from SR 80 data and working up. Also said it "spiked" don't use it for full power loads

1600 fps was my sweet spot with 4759 when I shot a lot of 30 caliber in CBA matches. Won a few matches with it in my .30 Krag Carbine and 30/06 Springfield

Most Schuetzen shooters using cast bullets will tell you 4759 can produce groups under 1 moa. ASSRA 25 ring is 3/4 Moa and 4759 has shot perfect 10 shot bench rest scores. Lot of offhand matches won with it too. Of course scoped heavy Schuetzen off the bench is going to group tighter than a lever gun, but the powder is not holding anything back.

It's good stuff keep it.

Boats
twidpa
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Re: IMR-4759 in 30-30

Post by twidpa »

This is about Boats reply,
So what replaces it? 80 to 4759 to ?????? 4227 is position and temp sensitive. Another question 1600 FPS does #2 alloy need gas check if sized properly?
T
boats
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Re: IMR-4759 in 30-30

Post by boats »

T

Optimal powder big case mid power loads progression over the years has been, Black, SR#80 IMR 4759 now IMR /Hodgen 4227. There are others but these are the most often used in big case cast bullet target rifles. And the powders that have won more matches than others.

Black as we know is not position sensitive, fowling aside probably the most consistent power you can use in the old guns, fill the case up no changes in position. It's not a good Lever Silhouette powder due to the short relay time limiting bore wiping. When going to smokeless powders more modern cartridges were designed smaller to get a case full of powder or if full power loads case full of slower burn powder. Factory 30/30's are all case full of powder

Large case mid velocity loads 1200-1600 fps the problem is what to use, Successful shooters have settled on the 4759-4227 series of powders. It's true they are position sensitive any half full case is going to be. However if you mount the gun same way every time powder position is the same and good accuracy is the result. My take is you are supposed to mount the gun same way every time anyhow, so it's not a issue. Way around it recommended some time ago was fillers, but it's been proven that fillers cause problems with ringed chambers.

Temperature sensitivity is another matter. 4759/4227 may be temperature sensitive I don't know. When Varget came out I switched my High Power Silhouette loads to it because it was touted to be less temp sensitive. I still had to adjust my zeros one or two moa very cold day to very warm day. Might be the adjustment with Varget was less than what I was using before, still had to confirm zeros. I can tell you with 4759 or 4227 in my 38/55 200 yard club offhand matches I never have more than 1 moa variation cold to hot extremes. Offhand may even be clothing I wear cold to hot makes the elevation difference who knows. Point is you have to pay attention to temperature any cartridge or powder.

Lot of matches have been won with 4759/4227 at mid power velocity. Lever Silhouette is not Single Shot target though, you need high power loads for Rams & these powders are not suitable. The are very suitable for C,P, and perhaps Turkeys. I think there is advantage in lower power short range loads, saving full power for Rams. Not sure about 150 Meter Turkeys. May be the full power loads will do better in the wind. When I was shooting CLA had zeros for my 125 gr 1600 fps and 170 g 1900 fps loads so could use both at Turkey distances. Windy went with the 170's.

On the Gas Checks, I don't use them 1200-1400 fps. If looking for 1600 I do add a gas check to cast bullets. May be you can play with Alloy and get 1600 without a GC. Problem is the Alloy, it's hard to get consistent lead temper even if mixing it yourself. Buy pre mixed lead it's a crap shoot how hard it is. Easier to add the GC if looking for 1600 fps. My CLA rifle I always used jacketed bullets. Single shots always use cast due to the match rules.

More than you wanted to know and comes with no guarantee of correct, opinion only. Could be some other powder or method is better, but would have to see concrete results before I switched.


Boats
hermit5
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Re: IMR-4759 in 30-30

Post by hermit5 »

Glen,you must not of been head shooting them.
5744 is supposed to be a replacement but i have not tried it.
stubbicatt
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Re: IMR-4759 in 30-30

Post by stubbicatt »

Brand new here fellas, and only started shooting this game this year.

I wonder, staying on topic, using 4227 or 4759 or even 5744 and a 180 grain gas checked RCBS mould in 30-30, is there a velocity range I should attempt to attain? I shoot a 200 grain bullet in my 32-40 with 13.8 grains of IMR 4227, and if I ever hit them, it takes down the rams ok. I hope to "cut to the chase" as it were and build on your experiences.

Hope I haven't gotten too far off topic.

Regards,
Stubb
glen ring
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Re: IMR-4759 in 30-30

Post by glen ring »

I put a good scope on my Marlin xlr and tested loads with 4759, 4198, 4895 and even trail boss. My gun likes jacketed bullets best 130 to 170 grains and is a constant 2 1/2 inch gun. I can get THAT group every once in a while at ONE inch...but I shoot 10 shot groups and measure even the fliers. If a gun shoots 8 shots in an inch, but always throws a couple of fliers out to 2 1/2 inches, it's a 2 1/2 inch gun. I think I'll stay with the 4759, NO filler and be happy with a constant 2.5 inches. If I can hold that well to 200 meters I should be good. Thanks for the info Boats. I believe you are correct.
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