Android Silhouette Spotting App

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Re: Android Silhouette Spotting App

Post by OldRanger »

I'm not surprised you got little response. If the apple one is the one I am thinking of it was the son of a couple of silhouetters that made it in his free time while at college. I don't think he was a shooter. Therefore its done in his opinion I would guess. I'm a programmer myself so I could see letting it slide into oblivion.

Here is an example of an ipad holder that could clamp onto the spotting scope. https://www.schooloutfitters.com/catalo ... 9621779777
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Re: Android Silhouette Spotting App

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squinty_shooter wrote:The Iphone/pad version is called marksman. I asked the builder if they would add a timer and more freedom on naming the saved files. Never received a reply. Go figure.
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I asked him too and his reply was - "start a "go fund me" for me and when it gets to $60,000 I work on it."

I have all sorts of comments about his statement...but they aren't appropriate for this site.

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PS: Cowboys didn't have cell phones or computers.
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Re: Android Silhouette Spotting App

Post by Taps »

What's wrong with a pin in the cork-board or a magnet on a tin board. FFS I am sick of the techno-crap. It's like some folks have an umbilical cord attached to their Idiot-phone. Can't put it down for 2 and a half minutes? Might miss a post on F#*k-wit book? :)]
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Re: Android Silhouette Spotting App

Post by glen ring »

Taps...I think we may be related.

I crunch numbers at home on loads, bullet's Bc and what have you....but then I have to go out and shoot them in the field anyway.

The number crunching gets me close so I don't waste too much ammo to sight in.

My phone is an old flip phone that only calls and receives calls so I'm out of luck for most of that high tech stuff.
When I get range time I like to just shoot.
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Re: Android Silhouette Spotting App

Post by Doodaddy »

But on the other side of the coin, I'd love to be able to track each match I've shot in, plot each shot in each match, be able to trend each performance and do further analyzing. Just because you don't want the information and would rather have the clipboard, doesn't mean those that want it are wrong. It's just a preference. Some are analytical thinkers. Some aren't. It's not entirely based a dependency of "being on the phone".

I've considered writing the app myself, but am not sure I want to fool with it.
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Re: Android Silhouette Spotting App

Post by Taps »

Unless you are going to write a detailed desciption of what happened with each shot, i.e. gust of wind, dropped barrel, broke trigger to the right, etc. your "data" aint going to tell you a lot. You can get a good run-down of how you shot off your scorecard. Not only does it show how many you shot, you can work out "trends". High percentage of misses on 1st shot? It will show on the card. Seem to be missing most of your last shots, ditto. "Old-school" =))
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Re: Android Silhouette Spotting App

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Taps wrote:Unless you are going to write a detailed desciption of what happened with each shot, i.e. gust of wind, dropped barrel, broke trigger to the right, etc. your "data" aint going to tell you a lot. You can get a good run-down of how you shot off your scorecard. Not only does it show how many you shot, you can work out "trends". High percentage of misses on 1st shot? It will show on the card. Seem to be missing most of your last shots, ditto. "Old-school" =))
So because the data captured isn't 100% optimal, it's better to not care at all. Stick a thumbnail in some cork for one shot and your head in the sand the rest of your life. Got it.
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Re: Android Silhouette Spotting App

Post by Taps »

Oh, so I've got my head in the sand have I Mr High and Mighty Analytical Thinker?
Better there than up my own ass!
Boy are you thin skinned.
As for analytical processes, without 100% of the true data your results are next to useless.
If you were an analytical thinker you would realize that there is a wealth of information contained on your score card alone that can be used to assess how you shot at each match.
To get any greater benefit out of an electronic record of results would have to include a detailed log of exactly what happened with each shot, otherwise you just wind up with a record of impact points without reason for why they are there. ( Unless I'm conversing with someone with an idetic memory who can recall the circumstance of each shot fired )
If that is what you want, have at it.
There ain't an "app" in the world that will improve your stance, hold, trigger control and follow through, that's called "practice".
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Re: Android Silhouette Spotting App

Post by Merlin »

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NRA Lever Action Silhouette - You get more clang for your bang with lever action silhouette.....
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Re: Android Silhouette Spotting App

Post by Doodaddy »

Taps wrote:Oh, so I've got my head in the sand have I Mr High and Mighty Analytical Thinker?
Better there than up my own ass!
Boy are you thin skinned.
As for analytical processes, without 100% of the true data your results are next to useless.
If you were an analytical thinker you would realize that there is a wealth of information contained on your score card alone that can be used to assess how you shot at each match.
To get any greater benefit out of an electronic record of results would have to include a detailed log of exactly what happened with each shot, otherwise you just wind up with a record of impact points without reason for why they are there. ( Unless I'm conversing with someone with an idetic memory who can recall the circumstance of each shot fired )
If that is what you want, have at it.
There ain't an "app" in the world that will improve your stance, hold, trigger control and follow through, that's called "practice".
It's not uncommon for people to be resistant to change much less utilization of new technology especially if they don't possess the cognitive ability to see potential value. The irony of calling someone thin skinned when you got your panties in a wad over the world leaving you behind is quite tasty. I truly thank you for that.

Let's have look at your "points".
Unless you are going to write a detailed desciption of what happened with each shot, i.e. gust of wind, dropped barrel, broke trigger to the right, etc. your "data" aint going to tell you a lot.
What on Earth do you think the app is for? A gust of wind could be noted and that shot(s) could possibly be excluded from any metrics ran after the fact. A dropped barrel or poor trigger control will show up in impact and seen by your spotter, marked as miss, and POI captured. Any information I would like to include could also be included. Rifle. Ammo. Scope. Sights. Weather. Range. Time. Season. The shoes I wore that day. Caffeine intake. etc etc etc If the app is written in such a way that I could run metrics on my results and filter off of a specific field such as the few examples I gave, the scores could be look at from many different perspectives.
You can get a good run-down of how you shot off your scorecard. Not only does it show how many you shot, you can work out "trends". High percentage of misses on 1st shot? It will show on the card. Seem to be missing most of your last shots, ditto. "Old-school"
I didn't say using solely the scorecard would be useless, but it's no where near as capable as a proper app could be. Wouldn't you like to see if there is some sort of pattern on a 1st shot miss rather than just "miss"? It might show you that there could be a cold bore flier of your rifle. What if I am doing poorly on a specific animal but in a consistent way? It sure would be nice to be able to do a shot overlay and see if there is a particular pattern showing up with my POI. Maybe a few more turkeys would fall.
As for analytical processes, without 100% of the true data your results are next to useless.
False. As long as proper context has been defined for the data, the data is valuable. Maybe that's what you mean by "true data", I really don't know what you're meaning by that phrase.
If you were an analytical thinker you would realize that there is a wealth of information contained on your score card alone that can be used to assess how you shot at each match.
To get any greater benefit out of an electronic record of results would have to include a detailed log of exactly what happened with each shot, otherwise you just wind up with a record of impact points without reason for why they are there. ( Unless I'm conversing with someone with an idetic memory who can recall the circumstance of each shot fired )
Again. I didn't say that using solely the scorecard would be useless. That's your own fallacy regarding me, but you know, you're right; if there isn't proper context defined with the data, the data isn't likely worth the effort to capture it. If the shooter isn't going to break down the performances after the fact, it's not likely worth capturing it. If the app doesn't allow for variables to be noted, then the app isn't what is needed. If you're not willing to look at what the right app is capable of capturing and see that value, then this conversation isn't worth having.
There ain't an "app" in the world that will improve your stance, hold, trigger control and follow through, that's called "practice".
Will it improve them? Absolutely not. I haven't seen someone claim that either. Could it possibly indicate an error with one of those? Surely. Primarily trigger control I would assume, but that's a blind guess.

The saying "practice makes perfect" is a very wrong little saying. I'm not sure if it's often spilled out on your half of the world or even at all, but it is here in the states. It honestly frustrates me to hear it said. It would be better to say "perfect practice makes perfect" and if errors aren't being noted, the errors are simply being practiced not leading to improvement. If there is room for improvement, then clearly something isn't perfect. If you're not striving for perfect scores, then this conversation isn't worth having. Shoot your shots, have your fun.

Silhouette is an individual performance, but is pretty hindered if done individually. What I mean is that if you're shooting completely alone, your misses tell no story other than the animal didn't fall. Your hits only say that the animal was struck in some manner that knocked it over. How can you improve on that if you don't know where your miss was or if your hit was on the other side of the animal from what you thought was your POA? That's why the majority of shooters have spotters. Some find them distracting or simply unwanted (likely the commentary rather than POI), and that's fine. Not every body shoots for the same reasons or goals. We're out here to have fun and celebrate a culture that we all enjoy. Glen Ring typically doesn't like a spotter (correct me if I'm wrong Glen), but I've never seen him make a statement saying that shooters using spotters are dependent, whiny children that need their hand constantly held and ego stroked which would be akin to your ridiculously absurd statement of people being attached to their "idiot phone" and not wanting to "miss a post on F#*k-wit book". Though he may say something similar about shooting vests, but I digress. :p

If the data seen/spoken by your spotter isn't captured on your scorecard, your scorecard isn't telling the whole story unless you're shooting 100% hit rates every match. Something enabling you to track what your spotter is able dictate would only be helpful if you're willing to put in the leg work.

Football, basketball, baseball, etc etc coaches watch game films. Golf swings are analyzed and ball landings plotted. Every sport I can think of is analyzed in every way they can. Why should we only look at the score? Why should our sport be any different? Traditionalism? Fear of innovation? It's always been done such a way? Annie Oakley wouldn't do it?

I think the biggest breakdown in this thread is that the function and capabilities of a silhouette specific app that you imagine is far, far, far, far different than the one I do. I think you wouldn't have made such a dumb statement regarding the "idiot phone" if you actually knew what an app could do unless you're just an overly sour curmudgeon. I don't personally know you so I really don't know. I can only go by the words and tone of your posts here.

The app (mine at least) would not be something that would Tweet out or make a Facebook status saying "HEY EVERYBODY I DONE SHOT ME A xx/xx TODAY AT THE MONTHLY SILHOUETTE MATCH LOOK WHERE I HIT THAT TURKEY PLEASE PAY ATTENTION AND VALIDATE MEEEEEEEE". My career is literally data creation, capturing, tracking, management, and reporting from an IT field for a complicated production process. It's not hard for me to imagine and define what the app would need to be in order to be worth the time, but I do know that if the app was done right, it would be immensely valuable for the right shooter. I also know what kind of time it would take to code such an app which is likely why it doesn't exist. I barely have time to shoot much less create something to tell me that I still suck because I haven't practiced because I sat staring at a screen coding an app.

If that sort of ability isn't appealing to you, fine. Use your scorecard and carry on with yourself, but don't come into a discussion simply to scream and cry because it's not the way you want to do things.
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Re: Android Silhouette Spotting App

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Taps wrote: As for analytical processes, without 100% of the true data your results are next to useless.
Actually, Daniel, that is not true. In fact, no data set is ever perfect. So statistical methodologies are developed to cope with that (the principle one being replication, and lots of it).

That said, I have yet to find shooters even slightly interested in beginning to learn about elementary statistical analyses. In fact, many are overtly and excessively hostile to even the idea that there might be a more objective approach. That's unfortunate, because there are almost no competitive games that are so beautifully suited to statistical approaches than shooting.

I would love to have that app ported to an Android platform. It would be fun and useful. The original author of the Mac version has not just silhouette targets but dozens of other registered targets that can be used as well. It would be superb for Schuetzen for instance. And ideal for tracking shots in Creedmoor as well. All of that, and much more, can be done in that one Mac app.

A recent 2-time BPCR national champion told me this year that he didn't think there were 10 people at the match that know how to properly test loads and rifles. Knowing his background just slightly, I think he is spot on. Though it sounds a bit harsh, he probably overestimated the number, if anything. If some of the really good shooters would invest time and effort in some more rigorous methodologies, I can't even imagine what they might achieve.

Here is an example of how one might begin to develop a testing protocol. I have posted this many times in many places and it almost never fails to spark some really angry responses for reasons I've never understood. There are many, much more sophisticated methodologies that would handle many other issues, but getting folks to fly before they can walk rarely works out well.

http://www.public.iastate.edu/~jessie/P ... 0loads.htm
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Re: Android Silhouette Spotting App

Post by Doodaddy »

BrentD wrote:
Taps wrote: As for analytical processes, without 100% of the true data your results are next to useless.
Actually, Daniel, that is not true. In fact, no data set is ever perfect. So statistical methodologies are developed to cope with that (the principle one being replication, and lots of it).

That said, I have yet to find shooters even slightly interested in beginning to learn about elementary statistical analyses. In fact, many are overtly and excessively hostile to even the idea that there might be a more objective approach. That's unfortunate, because there are almost no competitive games that are so beautifully suited to statistical approaches than shooting.

I would love to have that app ported to an Android platform. It would be fun and useful. The original author of the Mac version has not just silhouette targets but dozens of other registered targets that can be used as well. It would be superb for Schuetzen for instance. And ideal for tracking shots in Creedmoor as well. All of that, and much more, can be done in that one Mac app.

A recent 2-time BPCR national champion told me this year that he didn't think there were 10 people at the match that know how to properly test loads and rifles. Knowing his background just slightly, I think he is spot on. Though it sounds a bit harsh, he probably overestimated the number, if anything. If some of the really good shooters would invest time and effort in some more rigorous methodologies, I can't even imagine what they might achieve.

Here is an example of how one might begin to develop a testing protocol. I have posted this many times in many places and it almost never fails to spark some really angry responses for reasons I've never understood. There are many, much more sophisticated methodologies that would handle many other issues, but getting folks to fly before they can walk rarely works out well.

http://www.public.iastate.edu/~jessie/P ... 0loads.htm
Brent gets it!

While your comment concerning hostility towards analytics is certainly true, there is a small group in the rimfire benchrest community that at least appreciates the value of statistics concerning accuracy (lot testing and target performance) and the tuning of these rifles. Unfortunately most shooters there would rather rely on false positives and what they think is happening rather than look at the big picture. OnTarget provides a pretty good look into target analysis, but has its own hurdles to jump.
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Re: Android Silhouette Spotting App

Post by Taps »

Doodaddy
Well, who's crying with their panties in a twist?
As you stated you don't know me , apparently that doesn't stop you making assumptions and stooping to name calling.
Obviously from your verbose diatribe you spend plenty of time at the keyboard and perhaps it is you that has the narrow mind.
If you did actually know me you might have realized that my original comment was sarcastic and in agreement with what Michael posted. In Australia we call that "humour".

I actually have quite a good understanding of how statistics work and don't work. My comments were about quality of results, the more factors left out, the lower the actual quality of the result. Having studied Applied Science at University and seen what happens when not all variables are taken into account was the basis for my comment. You don't have to leave much out to get a totally different outcome.
Yes Brent, I get it. Some is better than none.

If you want to know, I have an Android based "Spotting App". My comments are from first hand experience. I go back to the fact that unless you are going to log as much information as possible as to the circumstance of each shot, you just wind up with a bunch of numbered dots. As to why they are where they are, nada. Unless you can fire your 5 shots and write an analysis of each one as it is taken in the TWO minutes, sorry I can't type that fast. Hence, "spotting board and pins" comment. K.I.S.S principle.
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Re: Android Silhouette Spotting App

Post by glen ring »

I am always open to anything or any advice that will make me a better shooter. I'm pretty much used up at 60, but still willing to learn something that will help me.

The first questions I ask of someone, with a new idea to me is , what is your record of achievement using technique a,b,or c.

If they are successful in the application of their idea and I can apply even a small portion of that to help me , I'll try it.

No matter what Doodaddy's discipline is, bench rest, BPCR, whatever, if his methods can be applied to my sport I'll try them.

Jim Luke, is in my opinion, the best lever gun silhouette shooter in the world. If Jim told me he rubs his feet with peanut butter before each match I'd try it at least once.
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Re: Android Silhouette Spotting App

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Taps wrote:Doodaddy
Well, who's crying with their panties in a twist?
As you stated you don't know me , apparently that doesn't stop you making assumptions and stooping to name calling.
Obviously from your verbose diatribe you spend plenty of time at the keyboard and perhaps it is you that has the narrow mind.
If you did actually know me you might have realized that my original comment was sarcastic and in agreement with what Michael posted. In Australia we call that "humour".

I actually have quite a good understanding of how statistics work and don't work. My comments were about quality of results, the more factors left out, the lower the actual quality of the result. Having studied Applied Science at University and seen what happens when not all variables are taken into account was the basis for my comment. You don't have to leave much out to get a totally different outcome.
Yes Brent, I get it. Some is better than none.

If you want to know, I have an Android based "Spotting App". My comments are from first hand experience. I go back to the fact that unless you are going to log as much information as possible as to the circumstance of each shot, you just wind up with a bunch of numbered dots. As to why they are where they are, nada. Unless you can fire your 5 shots and write an analysis of each one as it is taken in the TWO minutes, sorry I can't type that fast. Hence, "spotting board and pins" comment. K.I.S.S principle.
Who's crying? The very first post of yours that I responded to was you whining. I've simply been addressing it. The only "name" I used was apart of a much larger statement and only should have bothered you if it were true though it's hardly name calling at that point. We have humor over here as well. I'm quite familiar with humor. I've laughed a lot in this thread.

Sure. I spend plenty of time behind monitors; I get paid very well to do so. However if you think it takes much time to rip apart what you've claimed in this thread, no dice.

If you have a good understanding of statistics, let's try something. Drink a Fosters, calm down, go back and read my "verbose diatribe" again. You would see that I clearly understand that all possible and relevant factors need to be captured and that the quality of the results would not be valuable which is why the app would need to be capable of capturing these factors.
I actually have quite a good understanding of how statistics work and don't work. My comments were about quality of results, the more factors left out, the lower the actual quality of the result. Having studied Applied Science at University and seen what happens when not all variables are taken into account was the basis for my comment. You don't have to leave much out to get a totally different outcome.

I go back to the fact that unless you are going to log as much information as possible as to the circumstance of each shot, you just wind up with a bunch of numbered dots. As to why they are where they are, nada. Unless you can fire your 5 shots and write an analysis of each one as it is taken in the TWO minutes, sorry I can't type that fast. Hence, "spotting board and pins" comment. K.I.S.S principle.
You say factors need not be left out. OK. You say log as much information as possible. OK. You say, just keep it simple. OK.
Doodaddy wrote:if there isn't proper context defined with the data, the data isn't likely worth the effort to capture it. If the shooter isn't going to break down the performances after the fact, it's not likely worth capturing it. If the app doesn't allow for variables to be noted, then the app isn't what is needed. If you're not willing to look at what the right app is capable of capturing and see that value, then this conversation isn't worth having.
Weird. It seems I already said that. I even said that if the shooter isn't doing their part, it's not likely worth capturing. i.e. K.I.S.S.

Crikey! It looks like someone is a bit too prideful to admit they agree with me! =)) =)) =)) =))
If you want to know, I have an Android based "Spotting App". My comments are from first hand experience.
I think the biggest breakdown in this thread is that the function and capabilities of a silhouette specific app that you imagine is far, far, far, far different than the one I do.
Bloody oath! Look like I was on target there too! So you're basing your statements on your experience with an existing app. That's all well and good. I'd be willing to bet some serious money that the app you have isn't even in the same galaxy as what I would do or even be useful (in my opinion) and that everything you said about the scorecard telling a shooter as much is true. If that app was as capable as I've been talking about how a silhouette specific app should be, we wouldn't be having this "discussion".
glen ring wrote:I am always open to anything or any advice that will make me a better shooter. I'm pretty much used up at 60, but still willing to learn something that will help me.

The first questions I ask of someone, with a new idea to me is , what is your record of achievement using technique a,b,or c.

If they are successful in the application of their idea and I can apply even a small portion of that to help me , I'll try it.

No matter what Doodaddy's discipline is, bench rest, BPCR, whatever, if his methods can be applied to my sport I'll try them.

Jim Luke, is in my opinion, the best lever gun silhouette shooter in the world. If Jim told me he rubs his feet with peanut butter before each match I'd try it at least once.
For whatever it's worth, I shoot silhouette (air gun, smallbore, and cowboy when I'm at the match with my father) and benchrest (primarily smallbore, but also some military).

There are many differences between benchrest and silhouette, but there are some consistencies as well. There is plenty of data that can be captured from our performances if we're willing to put in the leg work. The main value added by a good app would be to look at specific patterns formed in POI. Let's say you're nailing everything with your Marlin 39A, but your hit rate seems to plummet when you step up to your pistol cartridge rifle. Let's say you could overlay all of your shots with that rifle over a few matches and you see that there is a cluster of misses at a particular point. You might need to adjust a hold with that rifle or maybe your load might need addressing. What if the first shot is always significantly high and left? Could be a load adjustment or at least a first shot sight picture adjustment. Who knows what might show up? Maybe it will show that our misses are totally erratic and that we're just bad shots.

That's the whole point of capturing the data, but Taps has a point. If the data isn't given proper context, each miss could tell a different story than what you think. However, let's say that each shot doesn't have a wealth of factors applied to it (though they really should), it's simple statistics that if you increase the size of your sample set, those outliers will have less, if any, impact and fall within the margin of error. If it's a great app, those shots that had known issues when they happened (bad round, huge gust of wind, you sneezed when you shot) could be excluded from the data set.
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