vests for cowboy lever action

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vests for cowboy lever action

Post by shooterxtc »

My 2005 rule book says no vests for cowboy silhouette.Under the NRA website it has a change of wording under that section. Are vests allowable if so what are the restrictions.I'm not looking for an argument I would just like some clarification from those who are up to snuff on the rules.
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Re: vests for cowboy lever action

Post by cslcAl »

Shooterxtc, cloth shotgun style vests have been legal since about 2008. You can not use a heavy leather vest like SB and HP.

You need a more current rule book. Just sayn'.

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Re: vests for cowboy lever action

Post by OldRanger »

cslcAl wrote:You can not use a heavy leather vest like SB and HP.
Not even if I pin a shiny sheriff star to it?!?
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Re: vests for cowboy lever action

Post by cedestech »

Does that include the shot gun vests that Hardscrabble sews the suede shoulder patches on?
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Re: vests for cowboy lever action

Post by jloehle »

Al,

I was told that the leather vests used in SB and HP were also legal in cowboy lever. That came from a Match Director who talked to NRA headquarters.

Is that not true?

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Re: vests for cowboy lever action

Post by cslcAl »

Here's what I know.

I started shooting cowboy about 15 years ago. Back then you could NOT wear a shooting vest, period. I think it was in 2008 they changed the rule to allow cloth shotgun vests. At that time I bought a vest from Chris Winstead that has the extra suede sewn on. I am still using it, and have worn it at Raton since 2010.
I have never seen a shooter wearing one of the heavier leather vests like SB and HP shooters use anywhere. I also have one of those, but I would not wear it for cowboy as I would certainly draw attention.
As far as someone calling NRA HQ we all know that unfortunately if five of us called and asked the same question, we'd get five different answers.

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Re: vests for cowboy lever action

Post by PhxShooter »

Well now you've started it!

The SB and HP HardScrabble heavy vests are a point of contention for CLA. There is NOTHING in the rules I can find that prohibits them. The general opinion seems to be that they are prohibited but then there are the rules. The rules in CLA say:
Clothing that adds stability to the shooting position is not allowed.

Then there are the following for ALL Silhouette:
3.12 Clothing - Commercial type trap and skeet vests (sleeveless) and shotgun shooting shirts are permitted as well as clothing normally suitable for existing climatic temperatures. Shooting coats, unnecessarily heavy clothing, or anything on the person that would provide artificial support such as clothing having excess padding or stiffening material or which restricts or supports the body in the shooting position may not be worn. Any dispute regarding clothing will be submitted to the Jury for decision. (See Rule 20.10)
(a) Sleeveless leather, vinyl, heavy fabric or multiple layered vests that may be considered or construed to be unnecessarily heavy or to provide artificial support are permitted if they can be closed over a gauge made from 4 inch thin wall PVC pipe, not less than 30 inches in length, passed through the entire length of the vest, and opened or vented from the bottom edge to a point two inches above the crest of the hipbone.
(b) The gauge will be available to the competitors for self-checking throughout the tournament. Enforcement will take place at the firing line when garments to be worn underneath are in place.
(a) seems to pretty much cover the questioned HardScrabble vests. Now I'm not by any means saying that I've ever seen anyone wearing the aforementioned vests that could pass the gauge test but if the test were applied and the shooter/vest passed, on what basis would one disqualify the vest or the shooter?

Now before someone starts with "It's up to the individual club or match director" there's also this rule:
Tournament sponsors may not alter these Rules. If sponsors require additional rules for special conditions, the additions must be fully set forth in the program.

I can't think of what "special conditions" could apply to alter this clothing rule.

The above quoted info was taken from the January 2014 NRA Rule book. No 2015 changes apply in this case.

This is of course just my humble opinion.

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Re: vests for cowboy lever action

Post by glen ring »

It might be a challenging endeavor getting a 4 inch pipe down some of those vests !
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Re: vests for cowboy lever action

Post by AMB »

As a Match Director if I suspect artificial support I will ban the offending vest, the party banned can then protest to jury. Same as a shooter I'll protest equipment I feel is illegal let a jury decide. Rarely needed, but I have no qualms calling a jury.
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Re: vests for cowboy lever action

Post by cslcAl »

Joe-Craig,

I called a committee member who was on the committee in 2007 when the rule for vests was adopted starting in 2008.
He confirmed my statement that cloth shotgun style vests were allowed and the heavy HP and SB type are not.
Like I stated before, I have been to the last 6 cowboy nationals and I have never seen anyone wearing a heavy Hardscrabble leather vest, and many of the shooters there do own them.

I hope this helps clarify your question. If not I don't know what else to say.

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Re: vests for cowboy lever action

Post by PhxShooter »

AL,

The fact that folks are not wearing them does not change the clearly stated rules. The rules as previously quoted, specifically say that if the vests can pass the 4" PVC pipe test they are legal. I don't know what else to say.

Actually I do know what else to say. This is another case of "I can't clearly write the rules to clarify my intent but I'm the Daddy and I say so."

I view this as being similar to purchasing a car. I don't care what the sales person "says", if it isn't in writing in the contract it doesn't exist. Personally I've never used the vests in question in any silhouette discipline and have no intention of getting one. That said, I'm a rules kind of guy and the rules clearly say they are legal for CLA. If the committee doesn't want them used then put it in writing.

Anybody found anything written in the Silhouette rules that disallows the vests for CLA?

Just sayin,

Craig

Seriously not trying to start a fight here or with anyone just looking at the rules as written.
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Re: vests for cowboy lever action

Post by OldRanger »

I've only shot a couple times with my lever gun and I was shooting SB and CLA SB in 2 different relays. So of course i used my vest. I had no idea it wouldn't be allowed (or would be frowned on) at big matches. Glad I read this thread, thanks.

Oh, does this go for the CLA centerfire too? I assume so, just checking.
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Re: vests for cowboy lever action

Post by shooterxtc »

Thanks for you posts. I appreciate your opinions and value them greatly.I'm not looking for an advantage I just want to stay on the right side of the rules. sometimes questions just need to be asked.

thanks again.
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Re: vests for cowboy lever action

Post by cslcAl »

Craig,

I do not disagree with your interpitation of the rule on vests. Anyone reading the current rule book would not see it any differently.
However there was a ruling on cowboy vests and it was NOT added to the rule book. I am currently trying to get documentation from NRA HQ on this subject. In the meantime here are some old posts to chew on.

This is from April 2008:
I had a discussion recently with Greg about the vest omission in the rules. He told me there was a lengthy discussion at the committe meeting about vests and the use of the Past recoil shields. The Past shields are now officially allowed and when they re- worded that section the shooting vest part was left out by mistake. He was of the opinion that it would be put back in next year.

Also: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3523&p=29421&hilit= ... sts#p29421

Likewise my posts on this are in no way meant to be argumentative. My posts on this subject are based on my experience as a competitor in cowboy silhouette since 2001, and as a match director since 2008.

Hopefully HQ will get back to me with more current data.

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Re: vests for cowboy lever action

Post by dustinflint »

Don't know why I'm making the mistake of jumping in here but here goes:

The general rule in all silhouette is Rule 3.12 which says no shooting vests that add stability: "Shooting coats, unnecessarily heavy clothing, or anything on the person that would provide artificial support such as clothing having excess padding or stiffening material or which restricts or supports the body in the shooting position may not be worn."

Rule 3.12(a) then creates an EXCEPTION: "Sleeveless leather, vinyl, heavy fabric or multiple layered vests that may be considered or construed to be unnecessarily heavy or to provide artificial support are permitted if they can be closed over a gauge made from 4 inch thin wall PVC pipe..."

The rule specific to lever gun clothing (Rule 3.1.3(e)) disallows heavy shooting vests and does not provide an exception: "Clothing that adds stability to the shooting position is not allowed."

So we have a general rule (Rule 3.12) with an exception then a more specific rule for cowboy (Rule 3.1.3(e)) with no exception. The specific rule limits the general rule and makes heavy vests illegal for cowboy.

Rule 3.12 also directs all clothing questions to the jury, "Any dispute regarding clothing will be submitted to the Jury for decision." So if you wear a heavy vest at a cowboy match, the jury is going to be called and it will disallow the vest because everyone knows they are not allowed and the rules specifically (maybe not CLEARLY, but specifically) disallow heavy vests for cowboy.

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