Blackpowder For CLAS

Centerfires, rimfires, pistol cartridges and everything in between.
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Taps
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Blackpowder For CLAS

Post by Taps »

O.K, I'll start it!
Black in CLAS sounds good to me Brent. I shoot .38-55 and .45 LC, good straight walled cases that will load well with black.
I do however shoot Winchesters ( at the risk of ridicule from the M.O.C ) so your bore-snake idea sounds like the go.
OR, at the risk of more ridicule, what are your thoughts on duplex? I'm looking at it from the reports that it helps in reducing the fouling.

Daniel
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Re: Blackpowder For CLAS

Post by glen ring »

I'm wanting to do the same thing Daniel. I can get free to my shootin shak this evening and I'll look in some old reloading manuals and maybe we can come up with something. I hear Black powder is VERY consistent once you have found a good load.
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Re: Blackpowder For CLAS

Post by BrentD »

Daniel,
I have shot very little duplex. I have three reasons to avoid it. But the process, for sure, works. I avoid it because it sort of defeats the purpose of shooting traditional black. Much like putting a Leupold 3x9 on a Golden Age flintlock - it would work just fine but you are no longer in the era so to speak. Second, it is easy to make a mistake with duplex and have something bad happen. Third, there was a someone who had the means and the brights to research bp/smokeless duplex a good bit and he found that there are infrequent pressure excursions beyond what one would be lead to expect for a given load. The hows and whys weren't explainable, but they happened and too often for me to want to deal with. Maybe as fourth reason, I find them a hassle to make and they don't gain me much that I can't do with straight black.

FWIW, my Marlin 93 .38-55 has always shot very well with 46 grs of Swiss 1.5 fg and the Lyman bullet. Shooting 5 shots without a wipe or a blow tube would give very consistent sub 2" groups at 100 yds. That's not excellent, but it was ALWAYS less than 2". With smokeless, I could often get better groups, sometimes a lot better, but they were inconsistent and when they weren't a lot better, they were usually a lot worse. So, what I like about black is that it is dependably the same, day in day out.

My .38-40 with 34 grs of the same powder and the RCBS 180 gr bullet for this caliber also shoots about the same, but I have not shot it nearly as much as the .38-55, so I can't say it for sure that it is as consistent.

My problem with smokeless seems to be powder position. 4198, 4227, 4895 and others have continually given me 6-7" of vertical that I can produce on demand by orienting the powder one way or another. But what it won't do well is just shoot consistently. These lighter loads in bp cases just don't get it done for me.

Chip Mate, in Arizona has shot a couple of 40/40 scores with his .44-40 and black powder. I have no doubt it can be done.

One of these days I might even shoot paper patches, but I was saving that for the 95 Marlin for now.

Brent
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Re: Blackpowder For CLAS

Post by glen ring »

Brent, Daniel

I dug out A Hodgdon manual and under the cowboy section it had loads for 25-35, 30-30, 38-55 etc. The loads listed for the 30-30 using triple 7 Rifle FFg was pushing a 160 grain bullet at 1547 fps. That would be kind of soft for rams. I filled a 30-30 case with 40 grains of FFg Pyrodex, not recomended powder by the manual, and it was almost 100% full. I think Brent is right. The heavier bullets in the 38-55 or 45-70 would probably be a better choice. The manual is dated Jan 2008. There are loads listed for all the major rifle cal.s and pistols also. It can be done with a little bit of research.
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Re: Blackpowder For CLAS

Post by Hattrix »

Glenn
You and Jeannie coming to Tappan Hill this weekend? If so, can we expect a smoke and fire show??
I'd like to see how that works. Hope you can make it.

Kevin O
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Re: Blackpowder For CLAS

Post by glen ring »

Kevin
We plan on being there and no I haven't worked up a good load.
I think we're spending Sat night in Salina and then driving on up Sunday morning. Concordia is all booked because of some mini motorcycle deal.
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Re: Blackpowder For CLAS

Post by BrentD »

I have stayed at the Rock City Motel in Minneapolis the one time I shot at Tappan. I liked the place okay. The town is really nice but lacks restaurants.

Good luck.
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Re: Blackpowder For CLAS

Post by Taps »

Brent

What lead mix do you use for the 38-55, hard/soft? I agree with you about the powder position problems with reduced smokeless loads.
My pet load sends a 250gr cast out at around 1400f/s and knocks over every ram it touches, so the blackpowder loads should have no problems in that regard.
Just looking to be different and perhaps loose the inconsistency.
That Swiss load you suggest must have a fair bit of compression? Any wad? What primer?

On another subject, just started working on load development for the CPA .45-90. Long way to go.

Daniel
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Re: Blackpowder For CLAS

Post by BrentD »

Daniel,
my .38-55 load has some compression, but not excessive. I don't recall what it is however. I use a 0.030" Walters fiber wad with it.

My lead alloy is a little bit of whatever is handy. Usually 25 or 30 to 1, but occasionally, 40:1.

Good luck with the CPA. You've got 11 months to figure it out :).
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Re: Blackpowder For CLAS

Post by w30wcf »

Glenn,
I have tried b.p. and b.p. substitutes (777 & Pyrodex) in the .30-30 and the best results came with Swiss b.p. However, in all my testing, I could never come close to the accuracy of smokeless, with the best groups running 2X as large as smokeless. Just thought I would save you some frustration....

On the other hand, the .32-20 should work fine with b.p. ..... especially Swiss ore Olde Enysford with would foul less. I don't have a .32-20 but worked with a fellow developing loads for his original '73 Winchester. We used the Lyman 311008 two lube grooved bullet. Lube was SPG. Powder was Swiss FFFG, 17 grs. by weight. It shot very well. As I recall he fired about 30 rounds without cleaning and the rifle was still grouping well.

I shoot a .44-40 with b.p. and I will say that I would be hard pressed to find a smokeless load that would shoot as consistent. I wrote a bit of a .44-40 black powder reloading how to of sorts which went into some detail of the different b.p.'s and bullets which would apply somewhat to powder, bullet type selections for the .32-20 and .38-40. I will say that Brent has more experience than I do at b.p. loading.

My .44-40 Black Powder Journey....
http://www.marlinowners.com/forum/team- ... urney.html

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Re: Blackpowder For CLAS

Post by w30wcf »

Taps wrote:O.K, I'll start it!
Black in CLAS sounds good to me Brent. I shoot .38-55 and .45 LC, good straight walled cases that will load well with black.
I do however shoot Winchesters ( at the risk of ridicule from the M.O.C ) so your bore-snake idea sounds like the go.
OR, at the risk of more ridicule, what are your thoughts on duplex? I'm looking at it from the reports that it helps in reducing the fouling.

Daniel
Daniel,
Winchesters are great!....as are Marlins! If yours is a '73, I would suggest 6 grs. of RL 7 under 30 grs. of FFG. I have found that works very well.
Do not use any of the faster pistol powders!!
I would suggest annealing the case necks to help eliminate blowback since .45 Colt chambers tend to be a bit generous

w30wcf
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