Brass Question
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Re: Brass Question
..removed double post.
Last edited by Bob Mc Alice on Mon Apr 27, 2015 8:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
- Jason
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Re: Brass Question
I've had the same experience with PP brass in the past. It does indeed to seem to be slightly thicker, and held to tighter tolerances than brass from companies like Remington and Winchester. It's not quite as consistent as Lapua brass, though, from my somewhat limited sample sizes. Not surprisingly, I can get the same velocities with PP brass with less powder than Rem/Win brass and I also seem to get more loads before retiring the brass (no hard data with exact loads/firings, though). Given the choice, I would probably pick PP brass over any company other than Lapua. Brass from Hornady or Nosler might be as good as PP, but I haven't used enough of those to really make any general rules for them.
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Re: Brass Question
Jason, you shoot a .260..correct? Did you use 7-08 or .243 to make them?
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Re: Brass Question
Jason, just out of curiosity how were you measuring the 'tolerances' on your brass cases? Weight? or mike ? or NECO jig? From just a metallurgical view the Winchester or Olin metal is the best in the world...they have a proprietary annealing process (for the metal before its drawn into a case) that's never been duplicated. So if you sort their cases by weight you'll find those cases to be very good...they also have a greater volume than any other case brand. Nosler looks and measures suspiciously like Norma brass even to the machined (drilled) primer pockets. Lapua is still the best case ,life wise, shooting wise...their case annealing certainly contributes to that....and they are very consistent weight wise. Both Norma and Winchester cases body diameters are slightly undersize. I'm curious to find out from Guru how the PP shoots
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Re: Brass Question
I measured the brass by weight, length, diameter/runout at the case head/shoulder/neck, neck wall thickness. I didn't use 260 Rem, as I only have Lapua and Remington brass for that and there was no expectation of equality there. Even with a known different in brass quality like that, fully prepared brass only resulted in very slight variance in group sizes (~0.4" for Lapua to ~0.5" for Remington for five shots at 100 meters in the last test that I did). I'm not sure it's enough to be noticed in the silhouette game. I used 243 Win, 270 Win and 30-30 Win when checking brass "quality" overall, from what I remember. I can check the data that I recorded later to be sure, as I think I also checked 223 Rem but didn't care as much about that since I already had a large amount of high quality brass for that. Case weights were measured on my RCBS Chargemaster scale. Dimensions were measured with micrometer and Sinclair (?) concentricity gauge. To be clear, I did not cut any cases open to measure the actual case wall thickness, so didn't measure that in any place other than the neck. The PP brass did have slightly less case volume and higher weight, as has been mentioned. For my uses, thinner cases with higher volume isn't a good thing. I'm much more about consistency and longevity. Even in 260 Rem that I shoot for highpower, any brand of case has more capacity that I need. If I can hit 2675 fps muzzle velocity with a 139/140/142 grain bullet for rams, I would rather that be the max that the case will hold. Unless I start using tougher bullets (RIP DanDeMan ), going any faster than that can make me lose more rams than I gain due to more momentum from more velocity.
I do remember that Winchester, except for one batch of 30-30, overall was better in dimensions than Remington. I don't remember it being more consistent in weight, though, especially to any significant degree. As I remember it, just from a subjective standpoint the primer pockets in the Winchester brass seemed less consistent than Remington and the flash holes in the PP brass seemed more consistently round. I only noticed that later during brass prep, though, so there's no actual data to support it. If they do have a super process for annealing, then their other processes must not be all that great. That's expected, though, given the price point.
A good summary of my impressions of the Prvi Partizan brass compared to other commercial brass is that it's about the same as Lake City 223 Rem brass compared to other lower-price commercial brass. It's just heavier duty and a bit more consistent. My frame of reference is only a couple hundred to a few thousand of each manufacturer/brand in each cartridge and in only a few cartridges, though, so isn't terribly statistically significant in the overall industry production. It's enough to make me prefer PP brass if it's available if I'm not shelling out the bucks for Lapua, though. As a bonus, sometimes PP brass is the only brand that is at least somewhat available, like last time I was searching for 7.7 Jap brass for the Arisaka that my wife's grandfather brought back from Okinawa. It was great to be able to respectfully restore the old war horse and have the family actually able to shoot it.
I do remember that Winchester, except for one batch of 30-30, overall was better in dimensions than Remington. I don't remember it being more consistent in weight, though, especially to any significant degree. As I remember it, just from a subjective standpoint the primer pockets in the Winchester brass seemed less consistent than Remington and the flash holes in the PP brass seemed more consistently round. I only noticed that later during brass prep, though, so there's no actual data to support it. If they do have a super process for annealing, then their other processes must not be all that great. That's expected, though, given the price point.
A good summary of my impressions of the Prvi Partizan brass compared to other commercial brass is that it's about the same as Lake City 223 Rem brass compared to other lower-price commercial brass. It's just heavier duty and a bit more consistent. My frame of reference is only a couple hundred to a few thousand of each manufacturer/brand in each cartridge and in only a few cartridges, though, so isn't terribly statistically significant in the overall industry production. It's enough to make me prefer PP brass if it's available if I'm not shelling out the bucks for Lapua, though. As a bonus, sometimes PP brass is the only brand that is at least somewhat available, like last time I was searching for 7.7 Jap brass for the Arisaka that my wife's grandfather brought back from Okinawa. It was great to be able to respectfully restore the old war horse and have the family actually able to shoot it.
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Re: Brass Question
Pick any American made brand of brass, full length size and trim to all the same length. Now weigh them. Surprise, they all are a different weight. I assume that means they don't have they don't have the same case volume because of the brass thickness. But this all BS to a silhouette shooter because we need a gun that shoots 1/2 or 3/4 min. Now if winning a match is measured in 0.001 inches, then you should worry about all the brass being the same.There are so many variables in shooting offhand, one or two grains of powder in case volume will never show up.
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Re: Brass Question
Good morning, Jerry.
The original question here was "is it OK to mix brands of brass for silhouette shooting"? The simple answer is yes, to which I agree. In my example of the 7-08 there was no significant difference in the weight and volumes of WW, RP and Hornady brass. Until I read this I gave no thought that the PRVI brass that was on the way to my house could be much different than our domestic brands. To my surprise it was much heavier than military spec. brass. Simple testing showed that it does indeed have less capacity. To me, three grains less capacity is like adding three grains to the charge in a domestic case like WW. I have no means other than actual range firing, looking at visual pressure increase signs and shot strike locations to validate this thought.
You say that "one or two grains of powder in case volume" will not show up in a silhouette rifle. Did you mean one or two grains in case weight? If so, I agree. Adding three grains of powder to charges I typically use in the 7-08 will boost speeds by 250 FPS. This translates to a 12 to 16 inch point of impact difference at 500 meters depending on bullet.
Hey Varn....I did some homework. The gun oil I used was actually lighter than the H335. The weight of the full case of oil was 48 and 51 grains. Now that we are talking liquid measure this converts to approximately 3.62 CC's..or...0.12 fl.ounces....or 3.5 ml.
The original question here was "is it OK to mix brands of brass for silhouette shooting"? The simple answer is yes, to which I agree. In my example of the 7-08 there was no significant difference in the weight and volumes of WW, RP and Hornady brass. Until I read this I gave no thought that the PRVI brass that was on the way to my house could be much different than our domestic brands. To my surprise it was much heavier than military spec. brass. Simple testing showed that it does indeed have less capacity. To me, three grains less capacity is like adding three grains to the charge in a domestic case like WW. I have no means other than actual range firing, looking at visual pressure increase signs and shot strike locations to validate this thought.
You say that "one or two grains of powder in case volume" will not show up in a silhouette rifle. Did you mean one or two grains in case weight? If so, I agree. Adding three grains of powder to charges I typically use in the 7-08 will boost speeds by 250 FPS. This translates to a 12 to 16 inch point of impact difference at 500 meters depending on bullet.
Hey Varn....I did some homework. The gun oil I used was actually lighter than the H335. The weight of the full case of oil was 48 and 51 grains. Now that we are talking liquid measure this converts to approximately 3.62 CC's..or...0.12 fl.ounces....or 3.5 ml.
Last edited by Bob Mc Alice on Tue Apr 28, 2015 10:51 am, edited 2 times in total.
- Bob259
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Re: Brass Question
Bob, Dan is smiling down on you I really miss what he would have added to this topic, he will be truly missed from all these conversations.Bob Mc Alice wrote:Good morning, Jerry.
The original question here was "is it OK to mix brands of brass for silhouette shooting"? The simple answer is yes, to which I agree. In my example of the 7-08 there was no significant difference in the weight and volumes of WW, RP and Hornady brass. Until I read this I gave no thought that the PRVI brass that was on the way to my house could be much different than our domestic brands. To my surprise it was much heavier than military spec. brass. Simple testing showed that it does indeed have less capacity. To me, three grains less capacity is like adding three grains to the charge in a domestic case like WW. I have no means other that actual range firing, looking at visual pressure increase signs and shot strike locations to validate this thought.
You say that "one or two grains of powder in case volume" will not show up in a silhouette rifle. Did you mean one or two grains in case weight? If so, I agree. Adding three grains of powder to charges I typically use in the 7-08 will boost speeds by 250 FPS. This translates to a 12 to 16 inch point of impact difference at 500 meters depending on bullet.
Hey Varn....I did some homework. The gun oil I used was actually lighter that the H335. The weight of the full case of oil was 48 and 51 grains. Now that we are talking liquid measure this converts to approximately 3.62 CC's..or...0.12 fl.ounces....or 3.5 ml.
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Re: Brass Question
Yep, your right, Bob. Dan would have jumped in on this one with both feet. He was the closest thing we had on this site to a bonafied ballisticision.
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Re: Brass Question
Bob, I love everything you've added to this thread. Great info and photos!
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Re: Brass Question
Despite his Luddite ways, McAlice has some value.
"You are never too old to set another goal or to dream a new dream."
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Re: Brass Question
And he has even recently shot a 6.5 and was hitting animals and knocking them over with a big smile on his face... He's really a closet 6.5 fan but just makes you think hes 7-08 forever.BCloninger wrote:Despite his Luddite ways, McAlice has some value.
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Re: Brass Question
Bob, yes I meant in brass weight. Seems this subject became a bench rest solution and not a silhouette answer. I agree, the short answer to the brass question is it doesn't make a difference unless you are shooting bench rest.
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Re: Brass Question
FYI...I did a little testing. Its not definitive but it should provide a perspective. I weighed random virgin cases all 7-08. Norma=169.5 grains and holds 55.3 grains of water. Remington= 165.9grs and holds 53.9 grs of water. WW=169.1grs and holds 53.6 grs of water. Lapua=175.6grs and holds 53.5 grs of water All necks were turned to .011. Looks like Norma has the capacity advantage. All the others are close enough to be insignificant since we load powder not water(except for the Guru who loads fairy dust)
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Re: Brass Question
Snake, I wonder where he gets that stuff. It must not be very expensive because he burns a lot of it with his reject bullets.