Ram ringers

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DanDeMan
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Re: Ram ringers

Post by DanDeMan » Wed Feb 11, 2015 9:51 am

jask wrote:Hi Dan, nice to read your input. I have met you when I used to shoot with Manny all the time.

How is Manny doing. I've not seen nor heard anything about him in about 10 years.

" With Sierra, 6mm, 107 SMK's the ram knock down doubled with the heat-treated bullets. However, accuracy deteriorated. When testing off the bench at 100 yards, the non-heat-treated bullets were, IIRC, about 1/4 MOA. The heat-treated bullets' group opened up to about 3/4 MOA."

I seriously doubt the accuracy of the bullet changed but it could have. What would have changed is the resonant point of the load. The jacket would have been totally different in relation to the rifling so the timing of the bullet/muzzle exit would have changed and would need another load work up completed. If you did attempt another load workup, then you may have had some inconsistency in the hardness of the jacket as a result of the heat treating.

From testing it was found that a 1 hr soak in a pre-heated, 400 F oven followed by quenching in cold tap water worked best. At that temperature the jackets are unaffected. And, the heat-treated bullets' diameters were measured with an anvil micrometer that measures to 1/100,000". There were no measurable differences. And, load-testing was done for the heat-treated bullets. It was found they shot best with the same COAL and powder charge as the non-heat-treated bullets. So, that variable was removed from the testing. Also, the testing was done with brand new rams and stands that had be build properly. All the stands were level and the rams were meticulously placed on the brushed stands and the rams feet were also brushed so the momentum to knock them off the stands was as close to the same as possible. Each string of 10 rounds fired was shot on the same rams, in the same order, in the same place. All hits were just above the front-leg/belly junction, the toughest place to hit a ram. The non-heat-treated bullets rang 7 rams. The heat-treated bullets rang only 3 rams.

I did a similar test using a 260 firing heat-treated and non-heat-treated bullets, 142 SMK's. A similar result was had, only not quite so dramatic. The heat-treated bullets make a noticeably louder clang. It was quite noticeable because the tested was done in a canyon with no wind or other sounds.


Do you have any examples of good hard bullet for Rams? I am open as to what rifle to build, 6, 6.5 or 7mm.

Manufacturers are always tweaking their bullets' cores and jackets. Without testing recent batches of bullets it's difficult to make a recommendation other than to refer to the bullet sectioning several of us did about three years ago. IIRC the 7mm .284 162 gr SST, due to their heavy jackets are great ram bullets. I can't recommend, any more, what 6.5 mm bullet would be best for rams without going some serious testing.
Last edited by DanDeMan on Thu Feb 12, 2015 11:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
Cheers,

Dan Theodore

Jerry G
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Re: Ram ringers

Post by Jerry G » Wed Feb 11, 2015 11:27 am

Re: Ram ringers

Postby jask on Tue Feb 10, 2015 5:22 am
One mil is 1/60th of a degree so even though the flight path is parabolic,


1/60 of a degree is 1 minute.

1 minute = 10 inches at 1,000 yd.

1 mill = 1 yard at 1,000 yd.

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Re: Ram ringers

Post by Snake » Wed Feb 11, 2015 2:18 pm

Jerry...see Hatcher's Notebook....a 150gr flat base at 2700 approaches the 500 yard (not meter) target at 20.25 degrees.....at page 30....that's empirical not guess work

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Post by DanDeMan » Wed Feb 11, 2015 2:51 pm

edit
Last edited by DanDeMan on Thu Feb 12, 2015 7:06 am, edited 3 times in total.
Cheers,

Dan Theodore

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Jim Beckley
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Re: Ram ringers

Post by Jim Beckley » Wed Feb 11, 2015 3:50 pm

Did ya swallow a rat, Snake?
U.S. Army-Donating blood since 1775.

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Re: Ram ringers

Post by DennisC » Wed Feb 11, 2015 4:17 pm

THEODORE !! good to see you up in print, It's has been awhile. MAN you cost me a bunch of money through the years...the last 'experiment' was a 30" 7mm ....was a learning experience...cutting that thing back at $40 inch for match stainless over 26". Hey what would the world be without engineers ??? And people willing to test out the theories.
(above one did have some merit).
Break em in the center bud...Dennis C (Carroll Barber..was from Mo)

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Re: Ram ringers

Post by Snake » Thu Feb 12, 2015 10:48 am

Sorry.....that rat wasn't tasty :ymsick:

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Trent
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Re: Ram ringers

Post by Trent » Thu Feb 12, 2015 11:46 am

Damn... better start donning my flame suit before I come in here. You'd think someone asked what is the best method for cleaning a gun. Or god forbid, how to properly break in a barrel!

You guys take your ram dingers pretty serious!

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Re: Ram ringers

Post by Snake » Thu Feb 12, 2015 12:23 pm

Really good Trent.....you who has never gotten 'excited' on these pages. By the way what is the best method to break in a barrel :ymdevil: It was a friendly debate...I espousing facts and reason and some others myths, voodoo and hyperbole =))

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Re: Ram ringers

Post by Jerry G » Thu Feb 12, 2015 1:02 pm

Jerry...see Hatcher's Notebook....a 150gr flat base at 2700 approaches the 500 yard (not meter) target at 20.25 degrees.....at page 30....that's empirical not guess work
---------------------------------------------------------------------
142 gr 6.5mm launched at 2655fps

Dist path inches
525m -60.66
450m -38.34

22.3 inches drop over a distance of 75 meters is not even close to 22 degrees. It's not even close to 22 minutes. It is damn close to 22 inches. 22 inches at 550 yards is real close to 4.5 minutes of angle. Just regular old math assuming I didn't let a large error creep in. I am getting old and that does happen some times.

All this has nothing to do with my post about the difference between minutes and mills.

I am sorry that my data is in meters and not yards. HP rams are at 500 meters. or, 550 yards if you like that better.

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Re: Ram ringers

Post by Snake » Thu Feb 12, 2015 1:57 pm

DanDee Man....you are correct the 168 7mm launched at 2500 arrives at 500 at 1731 per the Sierra ballistics DVD. my bad :oops: Jerry the 22 degrees is the angle of approach...the slope ,the hill, you know the incline? Like when de boolit she go down hill. Consider that you have to incline the muzzle roughly 15 degrees to launch, the bullet rising then sloping down hill...its about 20 maybe 18 with a 6.5 .... :-?

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Re: Ram ringers

Post by dustinflint » Thu Feb 12, 2015 2:55 pm

I am just posting this because posting is the only way I know to unsubscribe from a topic...

Dustin

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Re: Ram ringers

Post by jask » Fri Feb 13, 2015 5:00 am

Snake wrote:Jerry...see Hatcher's Notebook....a 150gr flat base at 2700 approaches the 500 yard (not meter) target at 20.25 degrees.....at page 30....that's empirical not guess work

That's not empirical data, that's just BAD data.

I just used data available from the internet for the following.

Nosler 7mm 168 gr accupoint in a 7-08 and 4895 powder. muzzle velocity 2524fps. BC .652

Using the Hornady ballistic online calculator. I looked at the bullet drop from 575 yds to 600 yds. That is well beyond the 546 yd or 500 meters.

The bullet drop between 575yds and 600yds is 10.2 inches. If you calculate the tan for the angle of drop, 10.2in / 900 in you get a tan value of .01133. The angle having that tangent value is .6491 degrees.

Since we are looking at a distance beyond 500m , the actual impact angle at 500m CANNOT be greater than .649 degrees. At 600 yds, the bullet is still at 1.6 mach .( Note to self. In my first speed run in an F-4 Phantom in 1973, I was faster than a speeding bullet. I got it up to 1.65 mach before the left aft engine overheat lite came on.)

Additional calculations:

525 to 550 yards, .566 degrees
550 to 575 yards .611 degrees
575 to 600 yards .649 degrees

The above totally proves your "hatcher notebook" incorrect

Dan: I sent you a PM regarding Manny.

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Re: Ram ringers

Post by Jerry G » Fri Feb 13, 2015 9:58 am

jask,

You were on the right track but I think you mixed feet and inches.

10.2 inches is o.85 feet divided by 900 feet is 0.0094 The angle of that tan is ?? My calculator gets a little confused with all those 0's It has been quite a few years since I have had to calculate angles that way and I am a little rusty and I just have a little cheep calculator now. In any event, it is a very small angle.

I am thinking someone is confusing total bullet drop from barrel to target with angle of attack at the target. Total drop at 600 yds would be around 88 inches. But..... That is even a smaller angle.

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Re: Ram ringers

Post by jask » Fri Feb 13, 2015 1:48 pm

Take the .0094 tangent and calculate the arc tangent.

http://rapidtables.com/calc/math/Arctan_Calculator.htm

.5385 degrees.

I have no idea what the 20 some degrees would be referring to but it certainly isn't the bullet impact angle at 500 meters.

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