Brass life

Bob Mc Alice · Post by **Bob Mc Alice** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 8:34 pm

I thought I would pass on some interesting stuff on how long my 7-08 brass is lasting.

Two and a half years ago I installed new match barrels on both my M700 heavy and hunter guns. I deliberately set the head space short on both to have a .0005 light crush feel when closing the bolt on new WW brass cases. The theory being no initial stretch on first firing. I started out with 100 new Winchester cases for each gun and loaded them with my favorite match recipe of a 130 Sierra MK over 36.0 grs of Varget. This is a light , very accurate load that develops only about 2550 FPS. MV.

I am still using those same cases after loading and firing them each 15 times with the same load. OK....pause for a second. I am keeping a close eye on them for visiual signs of head failure, but they are still looking good (read safe). I am using the bent paper clip feel method to check for thin areas in the head, but feel nothing indicating imminant failure.They are smooth with no shallow areas. For their entire life I have only neck sized using a standard Redding necksize die, not the bushing type. The die is set to give a .002 shoulder bump for resistance free, snug chambering. Not once has it been needed to full length size a case to close the bolt.

I have had to trim them a total of three times with approximately .015 to .020 brass removed since new. The necks no doubt are somewhat work hardened, but still give consistant bullet pull or tension. The primer pockets still feel as tight as when new. Other than a run thru the tumbler every few loadings, no other techniques have been employed.

50 each gun of these cases are now loaded and when fired will be at 16 times. I have put them aside to be used for practice only and will continue to look over each one closely after firing. The entire lot will be trashed at the first sign of a bright ring or any crack. You wouldn't want to open the bolt at a match and have only the head come out. No calling alibies for this problem.

I do not consider this careless , or reckless loading behavior. I dont make a habit of stretching brass life to the max. In my many years of handloading I have had more than a few partial head seperations and three or four complete ones. In a bolt gun this is not a life or limb endangering event. First you will notice a bullet hole out of the group. A small waft of smoke will drift from the gas bleed hole or from the breech area of the action. Then you open the bolt , and hopefully the whole case is withdrawn. Sometimes only the head comes out. This will certainly mess up shooting a match. The few complete seperations I have had at the bench over the years resulted in easy removal of the body of the case.

I once had a complete head seperation while shooting a 7-30 Waters Super 14 Contender off the bench. The shot was way off the target. I opened the action and out came the head of a brand new Federal case. Nothing else was odd about the shot . The load was normal pressure, just a faulty case. The body was easy to pick out. However, the next shot showed a marking fully around the head of the fired case. The case that had failed combined with the normal frame flexing created a gap in the broken case and let alot of the hot gas out against the chamber wall and flame etched a ring into the chamber wall. All fired cases now have this light impressed ring mark into the head area. No big deal.

There is no doubt that the tighter match cut chambers combined with mild loads, quality WW brass and little resizing in between is leading to much increased case life.

On the flip side, my heavier ram loads using R-P brass and the exact same loading process show fatigue signs at ten to twelve loadings and get trashed.

Any one else getting long case life like this?

Joaquin B · Post by **Joaquin B** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 12:55 pm

I only neck-size the cases used for CPT loads and anneal the neckand shoulder of the cases after every 5 reloads to eliminate the effects of work hardening from neck-sizing.

With cases used for Ram loads, I neck-size 2 or 3 times (until the cases stretch enough to make closing the bolt require a little effort), then anneal the case neck and shoulder, then full-length size. So far, my 7-08 brass has gone through approximately 20 reloads and 3 anneals, and is still going strong, without any splits. My .260 brass is on its 6th reload and first anneal.

Also, for full-length sizing, I have the dies set so that the shoulder is pushed back a minimum, to minimize case stretching.

I hope you find this info to be of help.

shakes · Post by **shakes** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 1:07 pm

I havent been reloading a long time, since August of last year. When I bought the rifle it came with some rounds allready loaded and some spent brass so I don know how many time they have been reloaded. Loaded some up for Feb match and went to check in the rifle(after I had loaded oh about 100 ram load and 125 cpt loads) and come to find I cant get the bolt closed all the way. Took some of the brass that I hadent loaded yet and put one of those in the chamber and the bolt would not close either. Sat and thought for a while and looked at which die was in the loader and it was the neck sizing die, put the full lenght sizing die in and reran the brass again, bingo bolt closed like butter. I now know that I have to full lenght neck size all my brass(remington) in order for it to fit in the chamber. Is this because the barrel is custom and the chambers are cut with less tolerance than factory? Now I need a bullet puller and the fun begins all over.

Bob Mc Alice · Post by **Bob Mc Alice** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 4:56 pm

I think we have all made mistakes when first learning to hand load Matt. Sounds like you learned your first valuable lesson, check the fit before you make a big batch of ammo. Is it possible the extra brass you got with the rifle was fired in a different gun? A fired case from yours should have still chambered.

One quick way to determine if they were from your rifle is to look at the primers with a magnifying glass or an eye loupe . Compare the toolmark impressions from the bolt face on a case known to be fired from your gun with the impression on the extra cases. No two guns will have the same toolmarks. Even the firing pin strike impression could look different. Kind of like the crime lab stuff you see on CSI Miami

As for pulling bullets, none of the tools out there do a perfect job of preventing bullet damage. The Davidson plier tool only works on soft seated bullets, but does the least damage. The press collet type tend to squash and score the jackets. The hammer tool works OK but you have to beat the hell out of it to remove light bullets and eventually the aluminum holding collet will shear off. The hammer is my preferred method, I made a steel collet for it.

A possible solution for you is to borrow a full length .308, .270 or .30-06 sizer die, remove the decapping rod assembly, lube and run your loaded .260 ammo thru it. Chances are the head area is the culprit preventing chambering.

Joaquin, interesting to see you getting that kind of brass life. I think I remember you telling me at a match once that we both were firing the same recipe of 7-08 loads. I plan on taking the brass to the limit.

lone ringer · Post by **lone ringer** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 9:54 pm

Bob, I advised Matt to do the same via Email using a 7-08 or 308 die because they use the same head space gauges. I do not think the 270 or 30-06 would do a proper job of re sizing the ammo but then again I have never tried re sizing ammo with those dies you are recommending.

Bob Mc Alice · Post by **Bob Mc Alice** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 10:09 pm

Yes, agreed. The 7-08 or .308 would be a better option as it would make full contact with the case and iron out any problem areas without disturbing the bullet. The '06 class of dies probably would do a good job of resizing the head only ...if that was the issue.

Welcome to handloading, Matt.

shakes · Post by **shakes** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 10:55 am

Thanks very much guys, like i told Tony, lesson learned big time

Bob Mc Alice · Post by **Bob Mc Alice** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 12:22 pm

Post deleted.....point made.

Bob259 · Post by **Bob259** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 1:08 pm

Bob Mc Alice wrote:...............And a happy ending , too. What more could you ask for.

I love happy endings. I'm starting to tear up.......................

Innocent · Post by **Innocent** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 1:59 pm

You go McAlice!
Mary

lone ringer · Post by **lone ringer** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 4:21 pm

One very important thing Bob and I did not include in his tread is that when working on loaded ammo and checking it to make sure it chambers to make sure you remove the firing pin from the bolt to prevent a live round from going off.

I have seen several times though out the years people with over sized ammo at HP competition running live ammo through their chambers without removing the firing pin from their bolts and at least one time at a state match one of those guys with faulty ammo let one go behind the firing line. Luckily nobody was hurt but he was disqualified from the match and had to leave the range.

Innocent · Post by **Innocent** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 5:14 am

Tony,
Thank you for posting that very important reminder, it is easy to slip into a hurry up and try this mode and forget little things like removing the firing pin.

Mary

Bob Mc Alice · Post by **Bob Mc Alice** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 4:02 pm

As most of us shoot a Remington 700 or a custom clone, no one should be without this tool. I have one in my range box.

http://www.sinclairintl.com/cgi-bin/cat ... type=store

sobrbiker883 · Post by **sobrbiker883** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 10:36 pm

I haven't logged 16X on each case, but my 7-08 brass is my four or five time fired 308 R-P brass necked down. Since switching to 7-08 only a few hundred rounds ago, I only Lee collet size until I get to where the bolt take a little effort to close. Then I'll FL size and start over. First sign of cracking=new brass.
I've done this with my 308's for years and get a lot of life.

Bob Mc Alice · Post by **Bob Mc Alice** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 1:48 pm

Steve, I have a box of 100 7-08 practice loads using the 140 Sierra flat base Pro Hunter bullets with cases reformed from LC 90-93 7.62 military brass. Six times so far.....should last for a while. I have another 100 box made from necked up new R-P .243 brass. Twice on these , no issues yet . The necks on these will be closely watched due to the rather extreme up size. I am thru with ever owning another barrel burning, short life .243, I went thru three of them. Had the extra brass and thought ...why not make good use of them. Might have to try the annealing routine to make them last longer.