More expensive to feed?.........you bet they are!

[Jason]

With silhouette being at least 90% a head game, I have stuck with silhouette because it's such a mental challenge. That's why books like "With Winning in Mind" help so much.

[Bob Mc Alice]

Jason, ....my sentence about not scaring bob259 was purely "tounge in cheek"...I just could not figure out how to attach one of those smiley symbols at the end. You are absolutely correct about centerfire accuracy. With proper loading technique, experimenting with different components, and plenty of bench testing, most rifles will shoot extremly accurate. Typical benched groups at rams with tuned ammo for a paticular rifle(assuming perfect testing conditions) will often result in most shots going 3 inches or less at 500 meters. The key to this kind of accuracy, I believe, is keeping bullet runout (measured at the tip) and concentricity(measured at the neck) to less than .002. A bullet that enters the bore straight will travel to the target straight. This type of accuracy is totally controlled by the handloader and will usually last the life of the barrel. As for the cost of shooting HP, it is what it is. It is not cheap by any means. Factor in the cost of getting set up for handloading, and the limited barrel life. And the costs of reloading components has risen dramatically over the last couple of years. Your $14. Eley works out to 28 cents per shot. A 7mm or 30 cal. MK bullet costs close to the same.Then you add powder, primer, and brass and the cost per shot is rapidly approaching 50 cents each. We all love to shoot silhouette and are willing to spend what ever it takes to do so............Bob M.

[Bob259]

bob259........hav'nt heard from you in a while. One of your last posts in HP, you mentioned the possibility of getting into HP. I certainly hope we did not scare the hell out of you!

No you didn't... Still thinking about it and if I sell a few of my rifles collecting dust I'll probably have one built. No rush as the closest range to me is 4 hours away so just in the planning stages now. This way I'll be ready to hit the ground running when I move to AZ

[timfinle]

Bob,

When you get to AZ, if you are in the Phoenix area, there are two ranges within 40 minutes for both small and HP silhouette. The nice thing is they shoot matches on different days so participation at both locations is easy.

[Bob Mc Alice]

http://s190.photobucket.com/albums/z94/ ... AT%20WEAR/ Reading Carl's method of measuring throat wear got me thinking of a way I use to establish the COL touching the lands with a particular bullet. I read of this little trick in an old copy of the American Rifleman many years ago. Take a full length sized case and create a slot thru the mouth down to the body / shoulder junction. I used a thin flat file to cut the slot. The resulting "fingers" provide enough tension on the slightly pressed in bullet to allow it to be pushed in by the lands when the bolt is closed and locked. Open the bolt and slowly withdraw the cartridge and measure the overall length. Repeat this procedure several times until you see a common repeatible length. Use your finger to not allow the bullet to drag against the action when withdrawing it. I use a homemade tool like the one Sinclair sells that rests on the ogive of the bullet for a more accurate surface to measure against. The number will be the COL when actually touching the lands (minus the tool). My preferred bullet seating depth is to have the bullet about .005 away from touching the lands. So anyway, I still had the number established back in Oct. when the barrels were new using a 168MK when touching the lands. When I got home today I checked this measurement again using the 168MK. Both barrels have 600 rds. thru them since new. My new measurement now shows .007 of wear/growth of the land/leade. Not sure this rate of wear will be consistant per every 500 shots. It will probably change at a higher rate (less rounds thru) as the steel starts to deteriorate over time. I will continue to take these measurements every so often and adjust seating depth accordingly. ..........Bob M.

[Bob259]

Bob,

When you get to AZ, if you are in the Phoenix area, there are two ranges within 40 minutes for both small and HP silhouette. The nice thing is they shoot matches on different days so participation at both locations is easy.

Thanks Tim. My niece lives over on Cave Creek right by 17 so it's just a short run to Ben Avery. The fact I can waste so much ammo in such a short period of time in AZ with all the matches makes it seem like the place to be. If I keep shooting the way I have I might better just spot for somebody

[Bob Mc Alice]

For the benefit of those that have not seen throat wear before, I have added a few shots of my Remington factory 7-08 worn out barrel. They can be seen in my previously posted album. Hit the fullsize key for a better view of the damage. This is the result of 5500 mild rounds. As you can see, my set up was professional. A 4x eyeloupe, that little Sony pocket camera, baleing wire, and visegrips.... H.P. White Laboratories would be proud! I wonder what that worn barrel would fetch on Ebay?

[Jim Beckley]

The general rule of thumb is about 1800 rounds for a .243, 3500 for a .260, 5500 for a 7-08, and anywhere from 7000-8000 for a .308. Usually you will know your steel is gone when they won't hold a group on Turkeys and Rams. I am told, I have never had it done but to cut and re-chamber your steel is just prolonging it by about 800 rounds depending on your cal. I have talked to people who have many more rounds out of their guns than what is posted here and I have talked to some that have gotten less also. Jim

[Bob Mc Alice]

Hey Jim,...... if they say 3500 rds is average for the .260 Rem, makes you wonder where the new 6.5 x 47 Lapua will fall in. Will a few grains less powder make that much difference? Jim H. told me his .308 is still shooting good at about 10,000 rds.

[Bob Mc Alice]

Hey Loneringer,.......You have probably sent more bullets down range than anyone else I know. Whats your opinion or experience concerning improved barrel life of stainless over carbon steel?

[lone ringer]

Bob, it is true I have shot my share of HP rounds down range but to tell you the truth I have never really kept track of how many rounds I fired with each barrel or things like that. Once I buy my reloading supplies I try to forget how much I pay for them other wise knowing how much it cost me to pull the trigger would take the fun out of shooting.

I will tell you some things I have experienced with the different calibers I have used through out the years I have been shooting HP silhouette. Started in 1978 with a 308 and if it had not been for an incident that messed up my face and broke my right cheek bone I would probably be shooting heavier than necessary loads or calibers. I went from 308 to 7-08 and since we did not have the VLD bullets back in the early 1980's my only choice were the 168 and 175 Sierras. I rang a lot of rams and the 7-08 was not pleasant to shoot in a 9 lbs Hunting class rifle, I had a Rem 788 with an 18" barrel. When David Tubb started winning matches using a 243 a lot of us changed calibers and tried 243's and 6mm Rem. Barrels would not last that long and some of us got in trouble loading our cartridges a little bit too hot to take the rams down.

In 1997 Rem came out with the 260 Rem as a factory loading and many of us changed immediately to it. I was the first shooter to win a National title with that caliber. To me the .260 has been like the right compromise between having a 243 for the first three distances and like having a 7-08 for the rams.

Things have not changed much since with the exception of some of us having gone to wildcat cartridges like the 6.5 BR and also a 7mm BR. The bullet makers have made it possible for us to use those calibers because before 1997 we did not have hardly any good 6.5 bullets. I remember that for a long time the only bullets available from Sierra were a 120 and a 140 MK. Now a days they make at least six different kinds and three of them are the VLD kind. Lapua makes in my opinion the best factory bullets for 6.5 rifles. I like the 123 for the first three distances in windy conditions and the 144 Lapua for rams in both my 6.5 BR improved (6.5 Viking) rifles and also my 260. Agustin Sanchez also uses a 6.5 Viking for his Standard rifle and a 260 Rem for the Hunting class.

Regarding CM or SS barrels I favor SS mainly because I do not have to pay to have the barrels blued and also seems like most custom barrel makers offer their select match barrels in SS, other than that I could not tell you if one is better than the other and why. I have been using Shilen barrels for quite some time and I am not planning on changing unless their prices went sky high.

I use Molly on my bullets on just about all the calibers I shoot including the Cowboy Lever Action.

It has been my experience that if I use a lot of powder on my loads my barrels do not last as long. I have shot out barrels in less than one year and the main reason was that I was practicing a lot with them and was not letting them cool down enough between sessions. Now a days I take several rifles with me both HP and SB and alternate between them so as to not shoot too many rounds at a time with the same rifle.

I have been shooting my 6.5 Viking rifles for the last five years and have noticed that my barrels do not wear out as fast, I have only gone through one barrel and it was a Shilen Chrome Molly that was never really a tack driver from the beginning. The difference between my 6.5 Viking and a 260 is about four grains of powder to get the same results but the accuracy of the 6.5 Viking cartridge is phenomenal no matter if I am using 20 gr or 30 gr of powder. A disclaimer for those that shoot Bench Rest is due here. To me any Silhouette Rifle that shoots consistently one MOA or less is a very accurate rifle. I do not spend too much time on the bench and I mainly shoot at the metal hanging gongs to get my elevation settings.

My recommendations? Load for accuracy, I like Hodgdon extreme powders like Benchmark, Varget and H 4350 for most of my loadings. If I had to chose between them I take Varget any day. 35 gr in a 260 with any bullet for the first three distances and 37.5 with a heavy bullet for the rams (that is Agustin's favorite ram load in his hunting rifle) I like to use 41 gr of H4350 and a 139 to 144 bullet for rams and 33 gr of Benchmark or VV 133 and any weight bullet for the first three distances.

I hope this is what you were looking for Bob if not I apologize.

[Jim Beckley]

That is the thing with different rifles and loads and barrel wear, none of this was done in a lab with techs going over the data, it's just what one person has experienced, which might not mean squat in anothers rifle, hence beware of using someone elses loads listed on any forum without checking a reloading manual for like charges or at least downloading before trying. When I was shooting a 7-08, I had always used a medium burning powder ie IMR 4064=VV135, but Jim Ferin gave me his loads which was a faster powder but less used less. The barrel life in that was about the same.

[Bob Mc Alice]

Thank you Tony for that informative post. Yes....you pretty much answered my question. Seems there are too many variables involved to accurately determine individual barrel life. When you read the information that some of the well known barrel makers have on their websites, they all state that stainless will have some degree of improved barrel life, but wont get any more specific than that. They all say that the primary benefits of stainless over carbon are better accuracy and easier cleaning due to the smoother finishes obtained during the manufacturing process. The $75. to $125. premium charged for stainless is to cover the added costs of machining it. ..........Jim,...thanks for your observations and input as well. ..............Bob M.