2016 Arizona State Championship Controversary

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Jason
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Re: 2016 Arizona State Championship Controversary

Post by Jason » Wed Jun 29, 2016 7:13 pm

Jerry, after considering my reply above I am not so sure that I'm glad this happened exactly the way it did. Your website was a great resource for rifle silhouette and I've directed dozens of people to it over the years and they've likely done the same. I'm a little sad that this affected that site. Even with all of this crap and other incidents in the past, thanks for all the work you put into that site. It has definitely helped a lot of people.

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Re: 2016 Arizona State Championship Controversary

Post by JWebster » Thu Jun 30, 2016 4:58 am

Jason wrote:Jerry,

You are acting like it's uncommon for people to get protested when they win but no other time. That's the standard in this sport and most any sport. No one is going to protest the mid-pack shooter because the other mid-pack shooters don't care as much about whether they're 12th or 13th and the top shooters aren't worried about what a mid-pack shooter is doing. Just as with any sport, if you win you should expect more scrutiny. That's how it works.

With that said, let's just go straight to the point instead of trying to deflect and blame others for what happened after the protest was filed. Did you really not think that using that archery glove would be against the rules? Seriously? You don't get to play the newbie card here. You've been in the sport too long. I stated all the reasons that it should obviously not be allowed, which go past any consideration of it being a "glove" to the point of just cheating. As I wrote earlier, I'm glad this happened. It caused a discussion read here by many and many verbal discussions about how we can't tolerate cheating in the sport.

On a related note, I assume that you wrote all that mudslinging on your website to get publicity for what happened. You've definitely accomplished that. It was quite the topic of conversation at the last couple of big matches. You're famous in silhouette now, although likely not for the reason you'd want to be.
Jason, It is my last response to you because it is not worth the effort. Why don't you respond about the false statements in your verbose post?

For you to say it is alright to see someone breaking the rules and not say anything until they win shows that you do not care about the rules or the integrity of the sport.

What you are saying is that it is alright for others to break the rules to punish someone else that they feel is breaking the rules. There were rules broken by others to disqualify me and THAT fact is not important, only the fact I was wearing an archery glove. Others can break the rules, but they have more status, they are your friends, so that is alright. Why is it alright for others to break the rules?

It shows that you, and a few others, do not care about fairness or integrity. It is the entire point of my placing the page there. If I was treated fairly, as I was with switching rifles, I would not have a page there about being cheated.

It is technically impossible for any person having integrity to know what actually happened and think I was treated fairly.

And of course, if I was not hiding the use of the archery glove, I did not think anyone was going to take the word glove and define it as an actual glove. Again, it takes a lack of integrity to throw enough literal meaning into the word glove in order to disqualify a match winner from an important competition, 6 hours after it was first worn.

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Re: 2016 Arizona State Championship Controversary

Post by Jim T. » Thu Jun 30, 2016 10:03 am

I certainly don't want to be accused of being "verbose," a term that Mr. Jerry Webster, owner of riflesilhouette.com, epitomizes, so I will be brief.

I do not know you and you don't know me, but I am acquainted with the three long-time, successful silhouette shooters whose reputations you have no problem dragging through the mud to assuage your guilty conscience (assuming you have a conscience and that is not handicapped also).

The diatribe you have posted on riflesilhouette.com gives us who do not know you a very clear view of who you are and what you stand for. Your tortured screed replete with all the excuses and rationalizations you could dream up could almost be funny if it wasn't so pathetic!

You appear to have no idea what the word "integrity" means so if I were you I would refrain from using it in this instance (at least as it concerns you)!

BTW, I would venture to guess that what Jason wrote about you is 100% correct and that most in the silhouette shooting community feel the same way, something you should think long and hard about.

JWebster wrote:
Jason wrote:Jerry,

You are acting like it's uncommon for people to get protested when they win but no other time. That's the standard in this sport and most any sport. No one is going to protest the mid-pack shooter because the other mid-pack shooters don't care as much about whether they're 12th or 13th and the top shooters aren't worried about what a mid-pack shooter is doing. Just as with any sport, if you win you should expect more scrutiny. That's how it works.

With that said, let's just go straight to the point instead of trying to deflect and blame others for what happened after the protest was filed. Did you really not think that using that archery glove would be against the rules? Seriously? You don't get to play the newbie card here. You've been in the sport too long. I stated all the reasons that it should obviously not be allowed, which go past any consideration of it being a "glove" to the point of just cheating. As I wrote earlier, I'm glad this happened. It caused a discussion read here by many and many verbal discussions about how we can't tolerate cheating in the sport.

On a related note, I assume that you wrote all that mudslinging on your website to get publicity for what happened. You've definitely accomplished that. It was quite the topic of conversation at the last couple of big matches. You're famous in silhouette now, although likely not for the reason you'd want to be.
Jason, It is my last response to you because it is not worth the effort. Why don't you respond about the false statements in your verbose post?

For you to say it is alright to see someone breaking the rules and not say anything until they win shows that you do not care about the rules or the integrity of the sport.

What you are saying is that it is alright for others to break the rules to punish someone else that they feel is breaking the rules. There were rules broken by others to disqualify me and THAT fact is not important, only the fact I was wearing an archery glove. Others can break the rules, but they have more status, they are your friends, so that is alright. Why is it alright for others to break the rules?

It shows that you, and a few others, do not care about fairness or integrity. It is the entire point of my placing the page there. If I was treated fairly, as I was with switching rifles, I would not have a page there about being cheated.

It is technically impossible for any person having integrity to know what actually happened and think I was treated fairly.

And of course, if I was not hiding the use of the archery glove, I did not think anyone was going to take the word glove and define it as an actual glove. Again, it takes a lack of integrity to throw enough literal meaning into the word glove in order to disqualify a match winner from an important competition, 6 hours after it was first worn.

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Re: 2016 Arizona State Championship Controversary

Post by glen ring » Thu Jun 30, 2016 4:45 pm

Dear cranky old white men that have called each other names during this thread/post.

I don't know any of you and I don't know who is right and who is wrong...maybe both are. I KNOW who filed this protest and I KNOW they are not a cranky old white man. This person is VERY nice and would NEVER be involved in all this drama after the NRA had their final say so. They filed a legitiment protest, it was ruled on and trust me, they have put all this BS far behind them.

I do know that the person that filed the protest will be shooting with me for many years to come and is welcome in my home ANY time.

As for the cranky old white guys that are calling each other names on a public forum, I don't want to associate with you unless you carry yourself like gentlemen.

We do not tolerate name calling in Oklahoma and run clean, fun matches that are drama free.
Our range is world class, with air reset big bore targets out to 500 meters...but after seeing all this between shooters I doubt if I will be approaching the silhouette director anytime soon to start a high power silhouette match schedule here.

We have IHMSA shooters and CLA shooters and the matches are drama free so if you are A. A cranky old white man that gripes about everything B. a drama queen ( male or female ) that seems to be involved in any controversy or C. A shooter that LOVES to file a protest to mess with another shooter we say " NO THANKS" Just stay away. We are a happy group and run happy matches with growing numbers. I will be shooting my first highpower match at Raton in a few days. Come sit with me, laugh , talk guns and discuss how to increase the numbers at shooting sports. . If you want to gripe and name call, take your happy hiney away from me. xoxoxoxo
Just Be Nice **==

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Re: 2016 Arizona State Championship Controversary

Post by JWebster » Fri Jul 01, 2016 9:46 am

If I had no names printed stating who did what in the case of the disqualification, I am sure many would see things differently. Because the names stated are friends to many here, selective enforcement of the rules is alright and I am wrong.

If all the names were anonymous, more people would see fault in not acting on what was deemed a rule violation until they wanted to, not when it was discovered. I am being labeled by the friends of these people as not having integrity because I find fault in it.

To those that are defending their friends:
The people that protested did not follow the rules, that is alright.
The Jury that disqualified me did not follow the rules, that is alright.
I am not on a pedestal, so my disqualification is alright too.

Their actions was found to be faulty by the NRA, but the NRA must be screwy too.

Who can deny that this should have been resolved in the morning when they discovered I was wearing the Archery Glove?
It is that simple.
Only those defending their friends or those who do not care about the rules would deny it.

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Re: 2016 Arizona State Championship Controversary

Post by Bob259 » Fri Jul 01, 2016 3:54 pm

STOP already!!! X( X( X( I don't have a dog in this fight, but here's my 2 cents.

What was done is over and been rectified to the best that it could be after the fact.

I also know these folks I'm sure it wasn't done with malice but with the intent that they thought they were doing right and within the rules. There were enough mistakes on ALL sides and that is what the NRA found and why they ruled the way they did.

First and formost Jerry, you should have known better and had gotten a clarification PRIOR to the match and it is my understanding as soon as the glove was observed that's when it was protested. Regardless of that, this matter was resolved by the petition committee and should be dropped, it is doing no one any good to keep up this conversation, nor will it change the results from what they are, except maybe to make you feel better by bitching. :|

Let's just drop this banter that is doing no one or the sport any good and get back to shooting.
Last edited by Bob259 on Sat Jul 02, 2016 7:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2016 Arizona State Championship Controversary

Post by Jim T. » Fri Jul 01, 2016 8:52 pm

JWebster wrote:If I had no names printed stating who did what in the case of the disqualification, I am sure many would see things differently. Because the names stated are friends to many here, selective enforcement of the rules is alright and I am wrong.

If all the names were anonymous, more people would see fault in not acting on what was deemed a rule violation until they wanted to, not when it was discovered. I am being labeled by the friends of these people as not having integrity because I find fault in it.

To those that are defending their friends:
The people that protested did not follow the rules, that is alright.
The Jury that disqualified me did not follow the rules, that is alright.
I am not on a pedestal, so my disqualification is alright too.

Their actions was found to be faulty by the NRA, but the NRA must be screwy too.

Who can deny that this should have been resolved in the morning when they discovered I was wearing the Archery Glove?
It is that simple.
Only those defending their friends or those who do not care about the rules would deny it.

Mr. Webster you talk a lot about following the rules, the fact of the matter is YOU were the first to break the rules on that day, or at least that is what the NRA held. Accordingly, if YOU had followed the rules this entire mess would have been averted.

Stated differently, on that day YOU made the conscious decision not to follow Rule 3.18 and the members of the appointed jury, without premeditation, were drawn into this mess because of your poor judgment. Case closed!

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Re: 2016 Arizona State Championship Controversary

Post by JWebster » Sat Jul 02, 2016 5:54 am

Jim T. wrote:
JWebster wrote:If I had no names printed stating who did what in the case of the disqualification, I am sure many would see things differently. Because the names stated are friends to many here, selective enforcement of the rules is alright and I am wrong.

If all the names were anonymous, more people would see fault in not acting on what was deemed a rule violation until they wanted to, not when it was discovered. I am being labeled by the friends of these people as not having integrity because I find fault in it.

To those that are defending their friends:
The people that protested did not follow the rules, that is alright.
The Jury that disqualified me did not follow the rules, that is alright.
I am not on a pedestal, so my disqualification is alright too.

Their actions was found to be faulty by the NRA, but the NRA must be screwy too.

Who can deny that this should have been resolved in the morning when they discovered I was wearing the Archery Glove?
It is that simple.
Only those defending their friends or those who do not care about the rules would deny it.

Mr. Webster you talk a lot about following the rules, the fact of the matter is YOU were the first to break the rules on that day, or at least that is what the NRA held. Accordingly, if YOU had followed the rules this entire mess would have been averted.

Stated differently, on that day YOU made the conscious decision not to follow Rule 3.18 and the members of the appointed jury, without premeditation, were drawn into this mess because of your poor judgment. Case closed!
I could have posted my error there too, but I thought that part was fairly obvious. I have clearly stated on my web page I was wrong. I have even stated other errors I have made. I did not give a one-sided story as if I was an angel done wrong.

To say case closed because I was faulty is a bit lame. The severity of the disqualification, after letting it be ignored all day, is what is really wrong.
Last edited by JWebster on Sat Jul 02, 2016 6:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 2016 Arizona State Championship Controversary

Post by JWebster » Sat Jul 02, 2016 6:10 am

Bob259 wrote: First and formost Jerry, you should known better and had gotten a clarification PRIOR to the match and it is my understanding as soon as the glove was observed that's when it was protested. Regardless of that, this matter was resolved by the petition committee and should be dropped, it is doing no one any good to keep up this conversation, nor will it change the results from what they are, except maybe to make you feel better by bitching.
Bob,

If you think that nobody knew about the archery glove before the end of the second match, you should ask around. I was informed by multiple sources that it was discussed in the morning match, including asking opinions about it. Yes, my error was not checking with the Match Director about equipment I was using however, I was disqualified for wearing a glove. I was not wearing a welding glove, or any glove my the definition of the word.

The truth is Eric new about the archery glove. He was angry at himself for shooting a lame score in the state championship so he and Kathleen decided to take it out on me.

It was resolved by a petition from the NRA after I was screwed out of the State Championship over what was deemed by the NRA as a minor offence.

Imagine having the rare opportunity to win a State Championship and have it ripped away over something minor. If it was an obvious offence of the rules, even if the Jury process was faulty, I would not have complained at all.
I would not even be here responding if truthful statements were being made about what had happened. Read the rancid post by Jason on June 6th stating I am a perpetual cheater and he is making false statements over and over.

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Re: 2016 Arizona State Championship Controversary

Post by Jason » Sun Jul 03, 2016 5:21 pm

You've admitted that you broke a rule. You still haven't answered my question on whether or not you knew that glove was against the rules or not when you started using. As long as you've been in the game, I doubt that anyone reading this believes that you didn't.

I never wrote that it was right that people got more scrutiny when they won than when they were middle of the pack. I just wrote that you implying that it was unusual and an obvious sign of malice was incorrect. You suggested that I wrote that it was right/fair and then argued against it. That's called a straw man argument and is a common technique used when unable to disprove the actual statement. Nice try. See below for more info.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

I also never wrote that the protest was perfect and the jury selection didn't violate any rules. It's clear from rule 11.2.1.
Jury members shall exempt themselves from ruling on a matter in which they are personally involved.
Of course, that means that in the protest against a match winner that every single competitor is personally involved to some extend and therefore ineligible to be on the jury. That's a bit of a problem, though. Here's rule 20.10.
At all NRA Sanctioned matches, the Match Sponsor shall appoint a Jury to be composed of persons who may or may not be competitors in the match, who are recognized as Metallic Silhouette shooters and who are familiar with the NRA Rules governing Silhouette matches (see Rule 11.2.1). Tournament Officials may not serve as members of the Jury. This Jury shall act on any protest or dispute concerning procedures, equipment or any other question which may arise during the tournament.

If the jury has to be someone recognized as a Metallic Silhouette shooter and who is familiar with the rules but can't be a tournament official, but in this case couldn't be anyone who actually competed in the match who would therefore benefit from disqualification from the match winner, then where would the three jury members come from? The answer is that it doesn't matter because what's done is done and there's no going back in time to do it over.

You can try again and again to deflect blame to others about the protest, but the simple fact is that you cheated. The reason that I wrote what I did is that you clearly have the mindset that you're just the victim and can use whatever you can get away with to help even the playing field. From this page that you wrote and have edited multiple times now that you've been called out about it, that is very clear. Notice that the link hasn't changed to "How I and others cheated" on the mainpage...

"How I was Cheated"
http://www.riflesilhouette.com/Disquali ... ified.html

That is what I was calling out as BS. Yes, you've had injuries. So have many others, including me. Your pictures of your right hand and shoe being worn slightly more on one side to try to elicit sympathy are a joke. I've had my right hand reconstructed, including having multiple bones fused together, resulting in much weaker grip strength than normal. Who cares? What does that even have to do with what you're writing about other than trying to portray yourself as a victim.

Here's what I was specifically calling out as the NRA decision also stating that you should have known you were breaking the rules.
4. The competitor admits to a violation of Rule 3.18 by failing to have the “archery glove” reviewed by the Match Director prior to using it in the tournament. However, a warning to remove the “glove” should have been sufficient with further action taken if the “glove” was not removed. The competitor needs to be more aware of the rules and their requirements.
Now, you also claim that I'm only speaking out on this to defend my friends. Let's examine that a bit. The names that you are specifically saying conspired to cheat you are David Bonner, Jim Beckley, Jim Goodnight, Eric Sundstrom and Kathleen Garvin. I do actually call David Bonner a friend, as he is a nice guy who has helped me with my shooting on multiple occasions at some of the bigger matches. I have seen Jim Goodnight, Eric Sundstrom and Kathleen Garvin at big matches, but I don't remember ever speaking to them directly. I am not sure if they would even recognize me, as I'm not really in their league when it comes to history or experience at big matches. I don't think I've ever even met Jim Beckley. Again, this has nothing to do with what we're discussing, just like the injury pictures and is part of sob story of you being a victim that everyone ganged up against.

Now, with all of that said, I'm amazed that you are still pushing this and getting it more exposure. What started as "How I was cheated" has ended up at least as negative for you as much as everyone else you're slinging mud at and also for the sport. I'm actually impressed with those you're accusing of conspiracy that they aren't calling you out for every little time you're broken the rules even when it didn't work and you didn't win. I don't think it's going to help anything if someone actually takes time to do that, so let's hope they don't.

Why not just let this go away? We can let this thread die and you can remove that page from your site so we can all go back to sending new shooters there for information on how to get started in the sport of rifle silhouette? As I wrote previously, that site was a great resource until this incident and I think it can go back to that.

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Re: 2016 Arizona State Championship Controversary

Post by JWebster » Mon Jul 04, 2016 1:05 pm

Jason wrote:Jerry,

You are acting like it's uncommon for people to get protested when they win but no other time. That's the standard in this sport and most any sport. No one is going to protest the mid-pack shooter because the other mid-pack shooters don't care as much about whether they're 12th or 13th and the top shooters aren't worried about what a mid-pack shooter is doing. Just as with any sport, if you win you should expect more scrutiny. That's how it works.


This is exactly what you wrote. What you said before is that it is common for someone not shooting well, braking the rules in some way, and not have it protested as long as they are not winning. That seems to be implying that rule infractions are commonly ignored unless it counts.

By all appearances, the statement is there to give support to those that knew I was wearing the glove, but ignored until I won. Why else would you even say it?

I responded about not knowing the archery glove was going to be labeled as a glove, it is in the last paragraph I wrote. For the record and the ??th time, it should be obvious I was not intentionally trying to cheat by not hiding it. I spoke of it to others, I openly wore it. You apparently want to cite definitions from the internet, look up the word glove. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glove

I feel stupid for wearing it now, but I do not need to feel stupid for not thinking it was an actual glove.
I was disqualified for wearing a glove, which is far more faulty than my wearing the archery glove.
It is the main point of the fault with the jury decision. Besides the fact if it was deemed to be breaking the rules it should have been address immediately, the only way to see the Jury's decision as justified is if you feel the Archery Glove is truly a glove that fits the intent of the rule.


Regarding:
If the jury has to be someone recognized as a Metallic Silhouette shooter and who is familiar with the rules but can't be a tournament official, but in this case couldn't be anyone who actually competed in the match who would therefore benefit from disqualification from the match winner, then where would the three jury members come from?
Another lame comment. What would have ben wrong with Tony Tello, Joy Cox or Lee O'Neil? Sure they competed, but they were not going to be directly propelled into match winner or state champion.

Regarding:
That is what I was calling out as BS. Yes, you've had injuries. So have many others, including me. Your pictures of your right hand and shoe being worn slightly more on one side to try to elicit sympathy are a joke. I've had my right hand reconstructed, including having multiple bones fused together, resulting in much weaker grip strength than normal. Who cares? What does that even have to do with what you're writing about other than trying to portray yourself as a victim.
Are you trying to compare a bad wrist with the difficulty of losing nearly all of the ligaments to your foot? If I was looking for sympathy I would have been whining to everyone all of the time. I only posted that because multiple people have thought, including David Bonner, that I am trying to take an unfair advantage wearing the boots. The truth is I am giving everyone else an advantage without them. It does not seem that you read anything, just looked at the pictures.

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Re: 2016 Arizona State Championship Controversary

Post by DavidABQ » Thu Jul 07, 2016 12:45 pm

Wow! This drama is still going on?

Just let this thread die already.

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Re: 2016 Arizona State Championship Controversary

Post by Innocent » Fri Jul 08, 2016 9:59 am

My only comment is I'm sorry I missed seeing the old white guy shoot naked!!! Such a waste of a great vest Mel, I would have considered joining you and shooting in my vest only!

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Re: 2016 Arizona State Championship Controversary

Post by DavidABQ » Fri Jul 08, 2016 8:01 pm

Innocent wrote:My only comment is I'm sorry I missed seeing the old white guy shoot naked!!! Such a waste of a great vest Mel, I would have considered joining you and shooting in my vest only!

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That would have been an unforgettable sight.

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Re: 2016 Arizona State Championship Controversary

Post by mshelton » Tue Jul 12, 2016 6:29 pm

Hmmm, I'm wondering if naked shooting would run other competitors off awarding one the match by default.

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