2016 Arizona State Championship Controversary

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Jim Beckley
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Re: 2016 Arizona State Championship Controversary

Post by Jim Beckley » Sun Jun 05, 2016 5:18 pm

MetalMisser, If you are who I think you are then you and Webster are defiantly cut from the same cloth.
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Re: 2016 Arizona State Championship Controversary

Post by glen ring » Sun Jun 05, 2016 8:17 pm

Meet, settle this in a gentlemanly manner. Send each other a personal message, meet behind the berm, on the mat, in the ring or in the court room. This kind of thing is the reason I prefer the company of mature women. Women may not always see eye to eye either, but they don't post this kind of thing on a public forum. I'm shooting my first and maybe only HP silhouette match of my life at the nationals in Raton. If you two shoot at the nationals I hope there will be no drama that will ruin my vacation...and for any new shooters reading these exchanges, the vast majority of us really get along well and we are not cranky old white men.
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Re: 2016 Arizona State Championship Controversary

Post by OldRanger » Mon Jun 06, 2016 7:21 am

I'm happy to announce that the Iron man regional competition is complete and there were no cheaters, no one accusing anyone of cheating and the only use our jury got was to register a couple of 10's towards wild kingdom pins. Thanks everyone for being drama free....
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Re: 2016 Arizona State Championship Controversary

Post by Jerry G » Mon Jun 06, 2016 7:39 am

MetalMisser » Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:14 am

Rule 3.11 For what it is worth an archery "glove" is not really a glove as the rules intend and sort of define. An archery "glove" fits over a finger tip, just called a glove--semantics. But the guy says he should have asked since he had a hurt finger and used the "glove" it to apparently protect it--then again even if approved by a match director, nasty folks can always protest the match director's decision regardless and the games begin...

If it is NOT a glove, what is it and why wear it? How does it protect a hurt finger? I'm thinking it is a shooting aid just like a hooked butt plate and sling.

I do believe you know who he is J B and you are correct on your assessment.

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Re: 2016 Arizona State Championship Controversary

Post by Jason » Mon Jun 06, 2016 1:16 pm

So... to save everyone else the trouble of reading through this drama, I'll sum it up here as someone who has no dog in this fight. Someone got caught cheating.. again.. when another competitor protested and a jury was formed to evaluate the protest. The jury consisted of those who moved up in ranking due to the competitor being disqualified for cheating, which violates the rules. The competitor challenged the disqualification due to this technicality and the NRA threw out the disqualification. In the statement from the NRA, it clearly says that the "glove" should not have been allowed and was a violation of the rules. The competitor is only not disqualified because the competitor should have been given a warning not to use the "glove" and given a chance to stop cheating before being completely disqualified from the match. The competitor then tries to smear everyone else involved in this to deflect attention from habitual cheating on his own website and here on SteelChickens, spinning a tale about being an innocent, injured, impoverished victim of corruption. Does that about sum it up?

Now.. It would be entirely different if the competitor here had been someone new to the sport, or if there had never been any previous issues with similar behavior. That was not the case here. Also, the spin here and on the riflesilhouette website implies that the jury was chosen specifically to only select those who dislike the competitor. That also seems to be untrue, as it seems to be those with deep familiarity with the rules and running matches. In this case, that resulted in a jury that also had very good shooters who benefited from disqualification. Technically, if the competitor was the match winner every other competitor benefited from the disqualification since everyone moved up in rank. I assume the gray area here is determining who materially benefited from the disqualification.

I have used that exact type of archery glove, commonly called a finger protector, when shooting archery with fingers instead of a mechanical release. It would obviously provide an advantage in silhouette shooting when worn on the forward hand to support the rifle's forearm. Not only would it give consistent grip without worry from sweat, it would prevent wear to the fingertips from recoil over the course of a match and would also make the rifle forearm slightly higher. Since this was the Arizona state match, the benefits are plain to see. It's not exactly winter. This would be obvious to any jury member if they looked at the "glove" and had at least a passing understanding of rifle silhouette. To imply that any experienced silhouette shooter using such a "glove" wouldn't know it provided a material advantage and was obviously against the glove rule is ridiculous, and is akin to saying that the competitor is either an idiot or a cheater. Since it's the competitor himself saying it here I'm happy to let him choose which he is himself.

Now, with that said I think it's a great thing that has happened here. It's now completely obvious to everyone here that Jerry Webster cheated, and did so knowingly. This has brought the habitual cheating out into the public light. The fact that the disqualification from that one match got overturned doesn't mean squat to me, as the bigger goal is removing cheating from our sport.

Now I will turn the tone of this post from observation to directly addressing the "competitor" here.

Jerry,

I've read the BS that you've written on your website and on here. It is pure BS. I suspect that at least half of the competitors of 40 years old or older have had some sort of injury or issue that could be used as an excuse to try to use devices to make them shoot higher scores. I'm only 42 years old and I've had my share of injuries. I've had injuries to my ankles and knees, including some needing surgery to repair. I've had my hand and wrist reconstructed, including needing to take pieces of bone from my forearm to use to rebuild things. I've had back injuries that have a documented history of medical treatment that's ongoing to keep under control. I'm likely not unique. You don't see me wearing position rifle boots, knee braces, back braces or anything else. Your claims of needing that stuff for medical reasons is BS. You're right that the finger protector you were wearing isn't technically a glove. Unlike a glove that can also provide warmth while it provides a bit of shooting advantage, that finger protector does nothing except provide the shooting advantage and to a greater degree than glove depending on the hold that a shooter uses. Do you really expect anyone to believe that you didn't know you were cheating?

You pushed your cheating too far this time and got caught. This "Help! I'm a victim!" claim won't hold water with any experienced shooters and you're actually just telling everyone how you cheated and got caught. I hope other shooters start watching your every move and using technicalities to protest every detail of what you do at matches even when you're not shooting well, including protesting every time you forget to load a round through the magazine in a hunter rifle or cowboy match. The other silhouette shooters in your area already have to deal with your BS, and I feel sorry for the match directors who do. Do not bring your drama and smear tactics here and expect a warm reception.

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Re: 2016 Arizona State Championship Controversary

Post by Jason » Mon Jun 06, 2016 1:31 pm

By the way, since there are "personal history" accusations being thrown around on this topic, please see MetalMisser's obvious personal vendetta against David Bonner in another topic previously.

http://steelchickens.com/forums/viewtop ... 384#p81472
and
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=10694

MetalMisser, please feel free to take your troublemaking elsewhere. I'm starting to wonder where this site admin's line is on allowing BS started by the same individual repeatedly.

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Re: 2016 Arizona State Championship Controversary

Post by Jim Beckley » Mon Jun 06, 2016 3:49 pm

Thanks for your post Jason.
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Re: 2016 Arizona State Championship Controversary

Post by jask » Mon Jun 06, 2016 8:36 pm

I read this entire thread and then read the article he wrote.

I have only one thing to say. Anyone who would tell someone to "shut the f*** up" at a match is doing more harm than good for the sport.

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Re: 2016 Arizona State Championship Controversary

Post by Jason » Mon Jun 06, 2016 9:27 pm

jask wrote:I read this entire thread and then read the article he wrote.

I have only one thing to say. Anyone who would tell someone to "shut the f*** up" at a match is doing more harm than good for the sport.
I agree with that, Jask. I'm a match director and if someone that did that at one of my matches, they would be asked to leave the match and not return. I didn't address that comment in the page on the website as I wanted to stay focused on the obviously deliberate cheating through use of the archery finger protector.

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Re: 2016 Arizona State Championship Controversary

Post by mshelton » Wed Jun 08, 2016 9:42 am

So let me see if I have something correct here.

Glove Guy shoots match on day 1, gets called out on 'glove', removes 'glove' and continues to shoot the match, records highest score, goes home.

Glove Guy comes to shoot match on day 2 and is told he was DQ'd from day 1, Glove Guy does not shoot the day 2 match.

Glove Guy contacts NRA, NRA reviews and overturns his DQ.

If Glove Guy had of stayed and shot the day 2 match he would then be champ but instead he did not so even though the DQ was overturned, it means nothing, correct?

Eventual Champ/s gets asterisk buy his/their names like Barry Bonds and other PED baseball players from the 90s?

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Re: 2016 Arizona State Championship Controversary

Post by Jerry G » Wed Jun 08, 2016 3:25 pm

You must have skipped this post mshelton.

Re: 2016 Arizona State Championship Controversary

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Postby Bob259 » Fri Jun 03, 2016 6:32 pm
Lets be clear, the shooter that was disqualified was awarded his trophy after the NRA petition committe overruled. So he did get awarded his scores and trophy.
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Re: 2016 Arizona State Championship Controversary

Post by Snake » Wed Jun 08, 2016 5:48 pm

Thus by reading the NRA ruling...the disqualification was overruled ONLY because the glove wearer wasn't given a warning. The accusation of the jury cheating is way off base and certainly factually incorrect. I know Bonner and Beckley...two of the most honorable competitors around and don't need to rig anything to advance their cause....I declare the Metalmisser's rant......BULL

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Re: 2016 Arizona State Championship Controversary

Post by Jim Beckley » Thu Jun 09, 2016 6:16 am

Snake, You are a Gentleman and a Scholar.
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Re: 2016 Arizona State Championship Controversary

Post by mshelton » Thu Jun 09, 2016 7:04 am

Jerry G wrote:You must have skipped this post mshelton.

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Postby Bob259 » Fri Jun 03, 2016 6:32 pm
Lets be clear, the shooter that was disqualified was awarded his trophy after the NRA petition committe overruled. So he did get awarded his scores and trophy.
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I did miss it, was just going off what was on the AZ website (http://phoenix.riflesilhouette.com/Resu ... te-HR.html)

Thanks for pointing it out.

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Re: 2016 Arizona State Championship Controversary

Post by dscak1 » Thu Jun 09, 2016 9:36 am

Well said Jason. I would only add that I believe the NRA erred in overturning the disqualification because no warning was given. I would equate the actions in this situation to being similar to a competitor, who, after having his/her rifle certified, significantly reduced the weight of the trigger and then shot the match. Mr. Webster knew what he was wearing is/was a glove, he identified it as such. He also is/was aware of the rules regarding gloves. Under these circumstances, I do not believe a warning would be warranted.

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