dustinflint says

More expensive to feed, but worth it.
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dustinflint says

Post by SteveD » Wed Apr 20, 2016 1:36 pm

"I can tell you that a 123gr bullet in a 6.5x47L is not going to do the job on Rams."

Here you go, fuego. :)
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Re: dustinflint says

Post by Jerry G » Wed Apr 20, 2016 2:27 pm

I would go with a fluted 8 twist and shoot the longer, heavier bullets. The heavy Lapua and the 142 Sierra's do a great job on the rams.

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Re: dustinflint says

Post by SteveD » Wed Apr 20, 2016 2:56 pm

Jerry G wrote:I would go with a fluted 8 twist and shoot the longer, heavier bullets. The heavy Lapua and the 142 Sierra's do a great job on the rams.
What cartridge, muzzle velocity, powder and how much powder are you using Jerry?
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Re: dustinflint says

Post by cslcAl » Wed Apr 20, 2016 3:19 pm

A 123 will take some of the Rams down some of the time, but a 123 won't take all the Rams down all the time.
I remember Detek Greenaway trying Rams with 123's. He was a shooter who hit a high percentage of Rams. It did not go well. Dinging Rams will not win matches.

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Re: dustinflint says

Post by SteveD » Wed Apr 20, 2016 3:30 pm

cslcAl wrote:A 123 will take some of the Rams down some of the time, but a 123 won't take all the Rams down all the time.
I remember Detek Greenaway trying Rams with 123's. He was a shooter who hit a high percentage of Rams. It did not go well. Dinging Rams will not win matches.

Al Foust
Hello Al, thanks for the reply.

Did he shoot 123 Sierras or 123 Lapuas?

I would not be surprised for 123 Sierras to not be effective on Rams. Sierra says that they have very thin jackets. I believe that the Sierras and Lapuas have a different copper jacket composition, 95:5 vs 90:10.

A shooter in Phoenix tried the Sierra 123's with disappointing results.
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Re: dustinflint says

Post by cslcAl » Wed Apr 20, 2016 5:18 pm

Steve, It all boils down to energy and more importantly momentum. Do the math, a 123 just is not enough bullet. Derek shot 123 Sierras.

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Re: dustinflint says

Post by SteveD » Wed Apr 20, 2016 7:44 pm

Hello Al,

Thank you for your informative replies.

There is a certain amount of energy/kenetic energy/work that must be performed to knock over a ram.

A heavier, slower bullet has more momentum and has been demonstrated to be more reliable at knocking over the rams. This would explain why a faster 6 mm bullet is less effective on rams than a slower, heavier 7 mm bullet that (hypothetically) arrives with the same amount of energy.

The thing that has not been mentioned yet is the ability of the bullet to transfer the energy it has, to the ram. It would seem that two bullets of identical weight, traveling at identical speeds but having differing abilities to transfer to the ram the energy they carry, would have different success levels at knocking over the rams.

A bullet that turns to dust when it strikes the ram has expended considerable energy at destroying itself. Any energy that it expends destroying itself was not transferred to the ram. Zero!

A bullet that would strike the ram and smash itself a large slug like you find on the smallbore line would be ideal. A far greater amount of its energy would have been transferred to the ram and over a longer period of time. (Still milliseconds.)

So it may be true, as you said, that a Sierra 123's will not reliably knock over the rams and it may be true that Lapua 123 Scenars will not knock over the rams but I don't think it is safe to say that because they are the same weight they will have the same result. If one is of a different construction that results in it transferring more energy to the ram and the energy it transfers is sufficient, it will have a better knock over rate.

I have not seen calculations for how much energy is required to knock over 55 lb rams. There is the 1,000 ft lb ( I have seen it range from 800 to 1,200) rule of thumb but that is based on experience that does not capture all of the variables. It that were absolutely true then a 308 would always take down a ram and we know that that is not the case.

Both of the 123's bring, for all practical purposes, carry 1,000 ft lbs to the rams when launched out of a 6.5 X 47 Lapua. Should be enough.

What would a similarly shaped bullet made with a precision jacket but thicker like you would normally find on a hunting bullet, do on the rams? Or perhaps a different copper formulation that would cause the bullet to keep its shape longer and thereby transferring more of its energy to the ram and less to exploding itself?
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Re: dustinflint says

Post by dustinflint » Wed Apr 20, 2016 8:22 pm

This forum is full of really long posts about taking rams with lots of talk of energy and momentum and bullet toughness and jacket thickness and all sorts of stuff that make readers' eyes glaze over and rush to CSPAN for some excitement.

This forum is also full of knowledgable folks who shoot a lot of HP silhouette and of those that shoot 6.5mm calibers the VAST majority use Lapua 139s and/or Sierra 142s for rams. Both of these bullets are proven to be very effective and have been used to win countless matches.

No one uses 123s for rams. If you decide to do that, have at it but don't expect to knock very many off the rail. It's just not going to work.

Dustin

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Re: dustinflint says

Post by cslcAl » Thu Apr 21, 2016 4:27 am

Well put Dustin. Steve look back at the old posts by Dan Theodore about momentum. The momentum factor is a better gauge of ram knockdown. 1.20 is the number you should look for to obtain reliable knockdown.
I'm not an engineer so don't debate me about the physics of all this. But over 35 years of shooting HP I've used a lot of different calibers and bullets. In my opinion the most reliable ram killer is a 175 SMK out of a 7-08.
Now I get that most folks don't like excessive recoil but if you want to win with a light bullet you better not miss many cpt's.

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Re: dustinflint says

Post by GabbyJs » Thu Apr 21, 2016 5:03 am

Different clubs have animals and stands of differing quality and condition. My 123 gr. Lapuas (2800 fps) and 115 gr. DTACs in 6mm (2720 fps) will knock over 500 meter rams at a high percentage. The same rams at the 200 meter distance are much harder to knock over with my .30-30 lever action with 170 GC lead bullets (1900 fps). I think the rams at that distance are leaning front slightly, makes a big difference.

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Re: dustinflint says

Post by Varn » Thu Apr 21, 2016 6:19 am

Al,
I tried the 123 lapuas on the same ranges that Derek was shooting the 123 Sierra's. And my results were the same as Derek's. I was looking for a lower recoil alternative for Emily. I ended up using some 139 FMJ Norma's that I found. At 2520fps avg they did an admirable job. Mark Varner

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Re: dustinflint says

Post by Jerry G » Thu Apr 21, 2016 5:12 pm

I am shooting the 6.5 Lapua. Lilja 8 twist fluted bbl, Lawton action, and McMillan stock. 107 Sierra, 34.5 gr Varget and 142 Sierra, 37 gr Varget. The only thing I don't like about the Lapua is the small primers.

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Re: dustinflint says

Post by Jerry G » Thu Apr 21, 2016 5:19 pm

I used a SB ram and a small scale to push over the ram. I did each spot 3 times and averaged the numbers. Then I drew a contour map of the weight it took to do the job. The ram had one continuous pad under it. I think a ram with 2 small pads at the feet would spin off a little easier with a hit on the back end.
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Re: dustinflint says

Post by SteveD » Thu Apr 21, 2016 9:47 pm

I would like to do that with a HP ram but I haven't figured out how to measure yet. What sort of scale did you use Jerry?
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Re: dustinflint says

Post by thauglor » Fri Apr 22, 2016 7:00 pm

I am sure a market type scale for selling produce would have enough range.

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