Spotting Scope

mordecai · Post by **mordecai** » Thu May 10, 2007 11:00 am

Fellow shooters, please lend me some opinions (which this group usually has a lot of...)

I'm in the market for a spotting scope. Nothing top dollar yet - maybe something that will work well enough or is the middle of the road for the next few years.

I need it for two things. I need it for High Power Silhouette (500m) and I'd like to be able to see .30 cal holes in the paper at 200 (pref. 300) yds.

I'm thinking I'd like something that is above 40x, perhaps approaching 60x (a variable is of course an option).

I don't want complete junk, but maybe something that's reasonable until I get a Kowa a few years down the road.

Innocent showed me a nice Nikon that may fit the bill, but there are so many choices out there I thought I'd solicit a few more ideas - thanks!

ajj · Post by **ajj** » Thu May 10, 2007 11:24 am

I've never owned a nice spotting scope but I've used several and they aren't at all like my $100 job.
Seeing bullet holes at 300 depends largely on atmospheric conditions. 200 is not usually a problem. Good glass helps but mirage is a big factor. In fact, seeing mirage well is one of the reasons you buy good glass.
You're looking for a lot of power, probably too much. 27-30 may give you the better combination of clarity and field-of-view.
None of this answers your question but may help you focus (!) on the features you need.

mordecai · Post by **mordecai** » Thu May 10, 2007 11:37 am

Boy, I used a 25x and 30x spotter for seeing holes at 200yds and I couldn't make out squat unless they were in the white and those were hard to see. Anything in the black was a mystery.

slowstdy · Post by **slowstdy** » Thu May 10, 2007 11:42 am

I have a Nikon and a Leica, I use the Nikon for 10 meter air rifle, its good out to 100 meters, and the Leica for long distance. One of the most important items If not the most Important, is you will need is a decent tripod.
If you look on ebay, (if it's not hacked again) Bogen, some times listed as Manfrotto. Look to pay $100-$150. 3031 at the very least.
A spotting scope i have looked through that really surprised me was a Meade, looked more like a telescope, but focused down to chickens, and was very very sharp with good contrast, Not as good as the Leica but way better than the Nikon.
Ebay is a great place to look for spotting scopes, there is a lot of photographic equipment sold on ebay, look for pro shops selling off equ, also under tripods some times you will see a combo tripod + scope.
Stay away from the cheep's you will regret it.

carl425 · Post by **carl425** » Thu May 10, 2007 12:25 pm

I've got this Burris:

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.e ... mid=731581

It's not bad considering it's under $200. My only complaint is the lack of eye relief, but I think that's pretty much the case with all of them.

dryfire · Post by **dryfire** » Thu May 10, 2007 12:27 pm

Hi Mordecai
I know it's a tough one to swallow but before I bought my spotter I checked out a lot of equipment already in use at matches.
I can only advise buy the best you can afford, just like buying a rifle.
If you come to dispose of it your resale is higher and it will probably last you as long as you need it. I purchased one with an offset (45degree)
eye piece and good eye relief as I use it in practice so I don't tire by spotting with my riflescope.
Atmospheric conditions do play a great part in spotting clarity but if the glass is good with a good coating you should be able to spot 30cal
holes at 300m.
I would recommend one from the Kowa series a 621 or 821 with variable eye piece and a good tripod as a place to start.
As I mentioned earlier I equated my purchase to being equivalent to buying another rifle. I have a Swarovski AT65 with high def lens and 20-60 eye piece. It surpassed everything I looked through, except the
AT80 Swarovski.
It will last the rest of my life.
Andrew

propwash · Post by **propwash** » Thu May 10, 2007 12:48 pm

I currently have a cheap ($35) Ebay special Bushnell 12-36 x 50mm and I can see .30 holes at 300 with my eye up against the thing and squinting like hell. I'm going to move up to a konus 20-60x80mm for about $195. I've heard really good things about this scope and I don't think champion shooters would sell it if it wasn't worth a crap...of course I want a Kowa but it'll wait.

http://www.championshooters.com/index-ssl.html

sorry the link only goes to the store....then click scopes/spotting scopes

mordecai · Post by **mordecai** » Thu May 10, 2007 4:28 pm

That Konus looks interesting.... Hmm....

morerams · Post by **morerams** » Fri May 11, 2007 5:59 am

As someone else said, buy the best you can afford, I would suggest you look for a secondhand Kowa, I have one with a 20-60 eyepiece and a wide angle 20X which I use for silhouette all the time, when shooting at paper targets out to 200m on a good day you can see 6mm holes with either eyepiece and on a bad day the extra power of the variable is no help. On scopes I had previously owned with interchangable eyepieces I found that trying anything over 30X was usually a waste of time unless conditions were very clear and no mirage.

mordecai · Post by **mordecai** » Fri May 11, 2007 8:49 am

That's very useful information! I'm noticing a trend in the mirage problems shooters encounter.

My problem is I come from a climate where mirage is a once a year thing and I have very little appreciation for it I would imagine.

Good information all around... I'm going to have to keep digging it looks like...

Jason · Post by **Jason** » Fri May 11, 2007 11:51 am

Hey Mike.. I was talking to Blair down at the Conard Cup when Mary was teaching us how to spot and read mirage about this. We're going to start bringing spotting scopes to the Tacoma shoots and trading relays spotting for each other. The mirage was doing a lot more than we thought it would have been for the temperatures that we had, and it's about time we learned how to read it. My scope's not a Kowa or anything, but it was good enough to see mirage at the smallbore distances. Let's work on this at the next match.

NewAZShooter · Post by **NewAZShooter** » Sun Jul 22, 2007 11:05 pm

Hey Folks,

Coming from a background in wildlife biology, I already own a Zeiss 20-60X 85mm, and needless to say, I love it! Several years back Zeiss had a sale in which the eyepiece of choice came free with the scope. If you can wait until around Christmas time, you can often find good deals on optics. We needed a high quality scope for field work like shorebird and waterfowl counts, so we made the plunge when the sale came by. Even so, it set us back about $1,500 bones. I think now to get the same scope with the same eyepiece would run you 2K. Luckily, it was a business write-off, which helped ease the pain at tax time.

Now that I am taking up SB Sil. I came to the sport already outfitted with a fabulous scope, which I can recommend highly for its outstanding quality, FOV, clarity, ease of prolonged comfortable use, etc. etc. Side-by-side, the Zeiss shows a larger image at the same power setting on the zoom than any other scope I've had it next to. So you are getting more for your buck in magnification as well, despite what the other manufacturers might say. As others have stated, buy the best you can afford. That said...

I cannot say I recommend it to Sil. shooters for its price, though. As a silhouette shooter, I wish I could get my $1,500 back and put it towards a rifle and a $200 Konus 20-60x 80mm, which I recently had a chance to use on my first practice day at our HP range. It was not as nice as the Zeiss, but very good and perfectly sufficient for HP use. Also, it is hands down the best scope I have ever seen for so little money. And I have used a lot of scopes over the years.

Now as a wildlife biologist tying to identify and count tiny little shorebirds from impossible distances across a lake for a living, you'd have to pry my Zeiss from my cold dead fingers before I'd give it up. But for HP, save your money and pick up a Konus.

Before you spend a penny on a scope, read up about exit pupil size. The higher the number, the better. And it makes more difference than you could imagine.

I am amazed at some of the variations in conditions described here. I have never been to BASF in PHX and not seen mirage through the scope. Granted, I just picked this hobby up a few months ago, and it gets hot early here. I just thought heat shimmer/mirage was a fact of life.

Jason, how are your lessons in reading mirage coming along? Maybe a new thread to discuss what you and others have learned would be useful to the group?

Cheers!

Bob259 · Post by **Bob259** » Mon Jul 23, 2007 4:14 am

Innocent, How about posting some information on reading mirage here or a separate topic on the subject. I'm sure everyone could benefit.

Innocent · Post by **Innocent** » Mon Jul 23, 2007 8:32 am

Bob,
Thanks for the vote of confidence. I will work on gathering up information on mirage shooting. Yes we do see a lot in damp Florida (especially damp with an unfound water leak inside my house) but the mirage out west is a little different. Kind of interesting playing in Phoenix with the mirage there.

Will post under a mirage heading, another one that could write a good bit of information on that is Lone Ringer.

Mary

atomicbrh · Post by **atomicbrh** » Mon Jul 23, 2007 7:54 pm

Another major feature that I considered when purchasing my spotting scopes was eye relief. I want maximum eye relief. The 2007 Nationals at Raton was a perfect example. Safety glasses were required for everyone on the firing line including scorekeepers by the Whittington Center rules not the NRA rules. We use a Kowa 82 Series with a 27 power long eye relief(27 LER) eyepiece. We even have an additional see-through waterproof cover on the eyepiece so that the scope can be used in a driving rain. With this combination we could obey the Whittington Safety glasses rules to the letter and not even notice we had our safety glasses on while spotting. Other folks could not function spotting because they could not see the complete field of view through other spotting scopes and even some Kowas without the correct LER eyepiece. I bought the Kowa also because an estimated 50,000+ Highpower "across the course" paper puncher competitors cannot all be wrong. It is the most common scope at the Highpower "across the course" matchs and they are trying to see .223 Service rifle holes. You will not find a bargain on E-Bay on a used Kowa because everyone knows how good they are. When I got ready to purchase the Kowa, I called all the retailers and told them I was going to buy a complete package with accessories and the price got a whole lot cheaper. Champions Choice made me the best deal at that time. The sleeper scope out there is the ProOptic which has great eye relief and can be purchased off of E-Bay for a lot less than $100. This is our "beater" scope for really rough conditions and for my son to use in indoor 3 position when shooters are in close proximity to each other and the scope stand may get knocked over to the floor. Another thing to consider is 45 degree or straight. In really hot climates you bend over some to see through the 45 degree scope and sweat drops from your head onto the lens and you cannot see. The straight body would be better in these conditions because your sweat does not drop on it. The advantage of the 45 degree body is that it can be used for prone and 3 position shooting on a single rod stand much easier. The 45 degree body has much higher resale value for this reason. Also the 45 degree body scope can be placed at a height for the shortest spotter that is going to use it and then all the other taller shooters who want to take just a quick look through it can just bend over without cranking it up and down on the tripod. Sometimes my shooters want to take a quick look at the mirage or a target even between shots and many times between banks and before the ready command.

Hope this helps.
Bobby R. Huddleston