Best cartridge for silhouette

[Bob Mc Alice]

Why not throw this in to add to the bullet smashing festivities. Seven and a half minutes in relates to this topic to some degree. Ten minutes of pure joy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfDoQwIAaXg

[lone ringer]

Bob, that video was pretty cool. Thank you for sharing.

[Snake]

DanDe: Omalley says Hey! The variables you describe as troublesome are exactly the things that skew the results of bullet smashing. So those 31 years of data collection are nice but not definitive ...the only constant is that regardless of the range, atmospheric conditions, approach and impact angle, and shot placement ...long relatively heavy for the diameter bullets with jackets work the best. That's based on 30+ years of observation and practice. You,of course, will note that anomalies such as 150 gr MK's easily take rams down at Ridgeway and Raton and that my 250 Savage with 120's does too except if they're center hit then like the 243 one can reasonably expect at ranges other than the two mentioned that the ram loss averages 1 for every 3 hit. That said cutting bullets open or smashing them is still interesting now can someone come up with a rig where I can hit 10 for 10 ? I figure if i can do it once I can do it again and again and odds are in my favor of scoring 10 for 10...given the fact that the odds are very good that I ain't gonna leave any old maids with 175gr 7-08's......check out the McAlice youtube link.

[DanDeMan]

......That said cutting bullets open or smashing them is still interesting now can someone come up with a rig where I can hit 10 for 10 ?

Snake, easy, it's call a bench.

.....check out the McAlice youtube link. That is a cool video. I watched it a while back, but watching it again was entertaining. It reminds me of a high school physics class were we used a strobe light and camera to check-out various physical phenomenon we were not able to comprehend with our puny vision and brains. High-speed photography sure does show us humanoids how little we really understand about the nature of things at times.

[DanDeMan]

Good Evening,

A fellow poster on this site sent 5 different 6.5mm ram bullets for smash-testing. The five 6.5mm samples are bracketed by 7mm bullets. The top bullet is a 7mm, 177-gr Cauterucio and the bottom bullet is a 7mm, 162 SST. From the picture it is obvious why the 7mm bullets do a better job on rams.

The five samples from top to bottom are: red = 142 SMK, blue = 139 Scenar, black = 130 Norma Gold Target, Norma, brown = 139 Norma and green = 144 Lapua. As can be seen in the picture, the black Norma 130 looks to be not the best candidate for rams. The 139 Norma is not much better. The 142 SMK (red), 139 Scenar (blue) and 144 Lapua (green) look to be about equal in the smash test.

[Varn]

Dan,
Thanks for smashing the 6.5mm bullets for everyone to see. Now if we could just get Mc Alice or someone to donate some 6.5mm 140 SST's to smash for comparison purposes. Mc Alice do you know of any floating around? I thought about this 140 SST for rams years ago after shooting two whitetails with 129SST's out of my 6.5x55. I was expecting 120 Ballistic tip performance. I couldn't have been more wrong. Those 129's were so tough I'm sure i could have shot one end to end. That got me to thinking that maybe the 140 SST would be a good ram bullet but never got around to trying them. I've also never sectioned a bullet or smashed any so I may be completely wrong on this. Thanks again Dan for sharing your findings and maybe someone has some 6.5mm SST's we could compare to the other 6.5 bullets. Mark Varner

[DanDeMan]

Mark,

Some 140 SST's are on the way. Once they are smashed-up, a picture of the results next to the 142 SMK and 139 Scenar will be posted.

[Dee]

While interesting I also don't think one can make a whole lot of assumptions based on this test alone. No one has to smash anything to tell me a heavier longer bullet will knock something harder than a smaller lighter one. But then velocity comes into play a lot as well it would seem when it comes to impact performance.

I only came back to this thread because I was hoping that after TWELVE PAGES of debate someone had posted what cartridge was the best by now!



Dee

[Bob Mc Alice]

Twelve pages, 173 replies and 3000 views. A Steelchickens highpower section record.

Varn, you ought to know me by now, NO 6.5 anything allowed my house. I did find one 6.5 bullet, a Sierra 140 MK, that some how got through my 6.5 defenses.I figured I should do my own version of a smash test on it. Whacked with a 5 lb. hammer caused it to split like a ripe banana. How could it be possibly be relied upon to knock over a 55 pound steel ram?


I hope this thread never dies.

[DanDeMan]

While interesting I also don't think one can make a whole lot of assumptions based on this test alone.

Dee,

Do you have a scientific or engineering background?

No one has to smash anything to tell me a heavier longer bullet will knock something harder than a smaller lighter one.

That only holds if both bullets have the same toughness. I've shot bullets lighter than others that have performed much better on rams even though they were launched at lower MV's.

But then velocity comes into play a lot as well it would seem when it comes to impact performance.

How so?

I only came back to this thread because I was hoping that after TWELVE PAGES of debate someone had posted what cartridge was the best by now!

I think I posted that for rams, nothing beats a properly designed 7mm BR rifle. For out to turkeys a 6mm BR. And, I also said the 6.5 x 47 is an ideal compromise.

Dee

[DanDeMan]

Bob,

I didn't think anybody could come-up with a cruder smash test. But, you have. Obviously, correlation between your smash results and ram knockdown performance are going to be suspect, in some minds. If a 5# works, a 10# must work better....now where's my 10# hammer for that finish nail.

[Dee]

No Dan, I am just a dumbass southern hick and you are the scientist with the slide weight. Carry on.

Something tells me you and Marvin Pearson must be really good friends.

Oh and glad I went with the 6.5 now that it has been confirmed by someone besides a dumbass like myself

Dee

[kevinbear]

7 IHMSA is hands down the best cartidge ever invented for silhouette, proper cases are difficult to make but the design is flawless. Body taper, shoulder angle, neck lenght and case capacity are perfect for a 7 mm target cartridge built for light recoil.
As far as factory cartridges go the 7-08 loaded light for the small targets and heavy for the rams has no equel. If you doubt my opinions just ask the guru. ;)
Kb

[DanDeMan]

Guten Abend meine Damen und Herren,

Below is a picture of smashed 6.5mm bullets. The one on the left is a smashed 142 SMK. In the middle is a smashed 140 SST, and on the right is a smashed 139 Scenar. As can be seen they are all about the same length. But, the SST's body is noticeably less bulged than the other two bullets' bodies. That leads me to think that it will be a bit tougher on rams. But, the difference is not as much as between the 7mm bullets, where the 162 SST showed considerably more toughness than the 175 SMK. In my mind it is a tossup between the three on toughness. Now, accuracy is a whole nuther kettle of fish, as well as BC. BC for the SST's is listed by Hornady as 0.520 whereas the SMK and Scenar are about 0.580. But, the SST's are much tougher than the A-Max in 6.5mm. So, to conclude; if cheap bullets that are as tough as the other commercial offerings are you predilection, the 140 SST's might just be the way to go.

OK....on further reflection, the SST's seem a bit more than a bit tougher than the SMK and Scenar. It should be noted that the ogive of the SST's is very weak. We can see in the picture that it is flattened like a pancake. But, the body is not bulged like the other two bullets' bodies. I'm thinking that a serious live-fire test would be the way to go to really get a grip on the differences in ram performance. Believe it or not, the sound of the bullets hitting a swinger in the same location will indicate which bullet is tougher. But, the swinger must be hit in the same location. The tougher bullets will make a louder "ringing" sound than the softer bullets. A nice quiet day at the range with no other shooters and no wind are in the offing for this geek. Sometimes we just have to do the dirty work. I'm going to load all three bullets with the same charge and listen for the ringing though noise-cancelling muffs.

[Bob Mc Alice]

I agree with you, Kevin. The IHMSA is great case design for launching 7mm bullets. It has the same one caliber neck length as a 7-08 and enough capacity to propel heavy bullets to the ram. Filled to the mouth with fine grain H335 the 7-08 holds 61 grains, the IHMSA 53 grs. The only drawbacks going to the IHMSA would be brass has to be made from .300 Savage, more expensive loading dies and no off the shelf rifles ready to compete. Not much to over come for just about the perfect silhouette cartridge.