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Klinsky stock legal?

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Klinsky stock legal?

Postby pbansen on Fri Dec 30, 2011 8:53 am

Does anyone know if the Klinsky target stock is 'legal' under NRA and IMSSU regulations?

Here's a picture:
Image

My concern is the 2.25" depth from the center of the bore on the foreend - looks like this stock might be too deep and would require some modification.

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Pete Bansen
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Re: Klinsky stock legal?

Postby BCloninger on Fri Dec 30, 2011 11:06 am

Definitely illegal for Hunter class because the cheekpiece and butt are adjustable.
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Re: Klinsky stock legal?

Postby pbansen on Fri Dec 30, 2011 12:07 pm

BCloninger wrote:Definitely illegal for Hunter class because the cheekpiece and butt are adjustable.


I was thinking more 'open' or 'standard' class, if that's what it's called. I have a CZ 452 Style (the Silhouette with a nickel finish on the steel parts) that makes weight and meets the spec for Hunting Rifle - this is kind of a fun project and if it's legal for the open class in silhouette, would be interesting to try!

I think this may be a little too deep from centerline of bore to the bottom of the forend to meet the spec for the Open Class. The rules allow no more than a 2.25" width and depth and this stock looks deeper than that to me. I haven't received it yet, so I can't measure it. If it's too deep, I could shave it down somewhat, but it's more of a project than meets the eye, because there's a channel for a hand stop and a barrel lug screw to contend with - still feasible, just not real simple...

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Re: Klinsky stock legal?

Postby boats on Mon Jan 02, 2012 6:07 am

While the rule book does not specifically outlaw adjustable cheek pieces or butt plates most matches they are not considered legal. Think the actual verbiage is "conventionally styled" Even if they are legal doubt if you would see many since the adjusting hardware adds weight that would have to be taken out of the rest of the rifle. Under Silhouette Air Rifle in the rule book specific settings for the adjustable parts are listed. Basically cheek piece down all the way butt plate centered.

If that stock came to my match would let it shoot but not rank the results with conventional small bore Silhouette rifles like the Anschutz 64/54 MS. Since I run the match don't often shoot it, when I do mostly use a "Free" rifle either Anschutz Match 54 with adjustable cheek piece and butt plate or a full Schuetzen with hook plate. Several others do the same. Note the results as "Free Rifle not for score" That Klinsky stock is a free rifle stock.

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Re: Klinsky stock legal?

Postby Jason on Mon Jan 02, 2012 4:07 pm

From the online NRA silhouette rifle rulebook, these are the rules for standard class highpower rifle that also apply to standard class smallbore rifle:

Code: Select all
3.1 High Power Silhouette Rifle
...
(d) Stock: The stock must be traditionally styled and may not be bent and/or twisted so as to deviate from
conventional configurations such as factory rifle stocks or silhouette stocks as manufactured by Fajen,
McMillan, H-S Precision, and others. The forend, including the trigger guard mounts and screws, shall not
exceed 2 1/4 inches wide, and 2 1/4 inches deep measured from the centerline of the bore. Magazines do
not have to conform to stock measurements but those that extend below the stock line may not be used as
support as per Rule 3.I(h) and 3.14. The forend shall extend a minimum of 8 inches forward of the forward
edge of the receiver ring. The comb shall not extend above the centerline of the bore, but Monte Carlo roll
may rise 1/2 inch on the off side. The toe of the stock including buttplate or recoil pad shall be no more
than 7 inches below the centerline of the bore. Buttplate or recoil pad may not extend below the lower line
of the stock.

Specifically, this is what the rules say about adjustable buttplates and cheekpieces.

Code: Select all
3.15 Buttplates and Cheekpieces - A butt or buttplate having a curved rear surface in which the depth of the
curve exceeds 1/2 inch when measured from a straight line drawn from the top to the bottom of the buttplate is
prohibited. Buttplates must be centered. Adjustable cheek pieces must be fixed and sealed in place. See 3.4(f)
regarding Black Powder Cartridge Rifle. Rule 3.15 does not apply to Target or Open class Air Rifles.

So.. adjustable buttplates and cheekpieces are not illegal, as long as buttplates are centered and cheekpieces are somehow sealed in place (which is up to the interpretation of the match director or jury at a big match). Any match that is NRA-sanctioned must abide by the these rules.
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Re: Klinsky stock legal?

Postby BCloninger on Mon Jan 02, 2012 6:58 pm

Jason wrote:So.. adjustable buttplates and cheekpieces are not illegal, as long as buttplates are centered and cheekpieces are somehow sealed in place (which is up to the interpretation of the match director or jury at a big match). Any match that is NRA-sanctioned must abide by the these rules.

And there's the rub - I would hate to show up at an out-of-town match and have my rifle fail tech inspection on an interpretation. If everything were epoxied in place and everything else was correct, I'd call it legal but someone that counts might not.
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Re: Klinsky stock legal?

Postby Jason on Mon Jan 02, 2012 7:18 pm

If it has so much as clear fingernail polish on it sealing the threads in place and it got disqualified by a match director, the competitor could take pictures and petition to have the match sanctioning revoked. If I saw a match director disqualify a rifle that otherwise met the rules and claimed that the fingernail polish (or whatever else) didn't count as being sealed in place, I doubt I'd go back to a match there. I haven't seen any match directors that actively tried to disqualify people who had gone to the trouble of finding the rules and then met them, though. That's a good way to make sure attendance goes down quickly.
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Re: Klinsky stock legal?

Postby boats on Tue Jan 03, 2012 6:58 am

Jason when you run the match you have to consider all the competitors, 20 guys that are shooting conventional Silhouette and Hunter Class rifles. It's important to be fair to them. I don't give the Free Rifles or any other non conventional rifle anything more than a quick glance. All kinds of odd looking rifles out there. Give them a slot if one is available but don't count the score in final match standing. Been shooting a long time and never saw a good Free rifle that would make Silhouette weight, my Anschutz weighs 14 lbs when it's scoped. A lot of College Team shooters shoot Silhouette with their team rifles at other club's matches and all the other MD's class them like I do.

Get some hot shot that shoots a free rifle well, places in the match has a rule book & scale and wants to argue with the match director so be it. All it means is he gets his name in the results email. Never happened and don't think it's going to. Somebody that wants to go to NRA on the way I run my match will give them the phone number. No complaints so far from the guys that shoot our program.

To the original question, not a good idea to build a new rifle on a Free style stock carrying heavy hardware that can't be adjusted in a match. Weigh that Klinsky and compare it to one of the new Silhouette stocks, you would probably have to give up a lot of barrel weight to make it scale.

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Re: Klinsky stock legal?

Postby Jason on Tue Jan 03, 2012 8:20 am

Treating everyone the same is exactly my point. Having everyone use the same set of rules and having the same expectations is the whole point of having a rulebook. I'm not talking about 14lb free rifles that don't make weight for standard class silhouette rifles. They would be disqualified because of weight no matter what shape they are, because they don't meet the requirements in the rulebook. A lightweight barreled action like a CZ 452 American or Anschutz 1712 FWT, BKL rings, and a lightweight scope like a Leupold FXIII would easily make weight for standard class smallbore silhouette rifle. The only possible problems are mentioned and addressed above, which is the point of the thread. Are you really saying that even if a rifle met every rule in the NRA silhouette rifle rulebook to qualify for standard class smallbore rifle that you, as match director, would not allow it to be officially scored and use "consideration of other shooters" as the reason? Hopefully I'm missing something here, because that's what it sounds like.
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Re: Klinsky stock legal?

Postby boats on Tue Jan 03, 2012 9:37 am

Jason our club is running NRA silhouette matches 3 weekends a month HP, Small bore, Hunters Pistol and CLA, same time left and right on the range. 3 Matches on Silhouette targets for Single shots Rim and Center Fire plus pre WW II service rifles under Club rules afternoons after the Sanctioned matches are complete. We have lots of satisfied shooters in fact now expanding the small bore range so we can accommodate more walk in's, pre registered are taking all the available slots.

Several times a year announced by email in advance I bring a scale & trigger weight to the matches and certify Hunter or Silhouette guns logging the serial numbers in my data base so they don't have to go through the check again. Match day there is always some odd ball rifle showing up. All the Match Directors do the same thing, give them a place to shoot but don't class them with the guns that fit the rules. If anybody does not like my rifle class decision on check in I don't have time to argue with them and have no separate staff to certify like at the Nationals. Conflicts over equipment have never been an issue. Shooters rifle becomes an issue we can pick a jury of shooters who will make the decision. To date everybody has been Ok with the calls and many have gone on to regular silhouette equipment.

Been shooting this game a long time, way most club matches run is exactly the same. If a shooter wants to use something that does not look like a regular hunting or silhouette rifle he is going to spend more valuable focus worrying about his odd ball or rule bender gun than shooting. Am also a IDPA range safety officer and give equipment checks and new shooter briefing. Deviation from the rule book is much more common in that sport. Always somebody that wants to shoot the stock class with some go fast part on his plastic pistol when there is a modified class available. We check it then if not complying put the shooter in the Custom class. Thing that you notice after doing it a while is the equipment rule argue guys never shoot well.

My advice is to shoot what everybody else shoots and pay attention to breaking good shots. Long as it's up to standard the gun is the least important part of Silhouette shooting.

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Re: Klinsky stock legal?

Postby Jason on Tue Jan 03, 2012 10:12 am

So the answer to my question is "yes" then? If a new shooter showed up at your NRA-approved smallbore rifle silhouette match with a rifle that met every single rule that the NRA had but wasn't like the ones that usually shoot your match, you'd tell that that they can't shoot for an official score in NRA smallbore silhouette rifle classification? That's my only question here, and it has nothing to do with other matches, other match directors, or IDPA. There are only two possible answers, yes or no.

Now, you may be wondering why I'm taking the time to type out multiple posts about this, and I'll tell you. Two years ago, a new user on this forum started reading up on silhouette and I gave him some advice in a post similar to this. We exchanged a few PMs and several emails. He was all excited about silhoutte and couldn't wait to get started. Contrary to my advice to go to a few matches with whatever 22lr he had before spending money, he went "whole hog" and bought an Anschutz 1712. The only ones available were the meister grade versions, so he bought one of those. He also bought a Leupold 6.5-20 EFR and custom ring setup that was just barely under the max height by NRA rules. He put it all together and made weight with a few ounces to spare. He even bought a few bricks of Eley black box ammo. Needless to say, this was a major cash outlay and he was really excited to go to his first match. He got all his sight settings ahead of time and practiced for a couple weeks. I got an email from him the night before his first match that he was driving two hours each way to and then got nothing after the match, which surprised me. When I emailed him several days later to ask how the match had gone, his only reply was to ask if I knew anyone who might want to buy his silhouette gun. With later emails, I found out that the match director at the match he went to had disqualified him from hunter class because the 1712, 6.5-20x scope, and high ring setup "didn't look like any hunting 22 he'd ever seen" so it couldn't be in hunter class. The match director had offered to let him shoot a practice match that day since he'd driven so far, but suggested that he bring something else to shoot the next time he came. That was all it took to take an enthusiastic new shooter from spending thousands of dollars and practicing multiple times a week to wanting to never shoot another silhouette match.

He had shown up with a rifle that met every rule in the NRA rulebook and is therefore accepted at other matches, but got treated exactly how it sounds like might happen at your match. At least that match director had a bit of a leg to stand on with the ambiguous "hunting style rifle" in the hunter class rules. For standard rifle, there is no such ambiguity. If you do actually tell someone that they can't shoot an official score because their equipment doesn't qualify, I sure hope you have an actual rule to point them to instead of "that's not like the other rifles that most here shoot" as it sounds to me.
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Re: Klinsky stock legal?

Postby boats on Tue Jan 03, 2012 10:34 am

Short answer is Yes we allow rifles that meet NRA rules to shoot in the appropriate class. No we don't allow rifles that do not meet the rules to shoot for match standing. We do not certify rifles every match. It's match directors discretion then to shooters jury if his decision is not accepted. We certify several times a year with advance notice.

I am sorry I answered the Gentleman's question on shooting a Free Rifle in Silhouette matches. My experience is it's not a path to success.

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Re: Klinsky stock legal?

Postby pbansen on Wed Jan 04, 2012 9:20 am

This has been an interesting and enlightening discussion and I appreciate the information gleaned from it. The Klinsky stock is intended more as an interesting addition to my CZ 452 Varmint than as a stock that I'd attempt to use in competition. I have a 452 'Style' that I have set up for that and there should be no question of the legality of that rifle under the Smallbore Hunting Silhouette Rifle rules, provided it makes weight at 8.5 pounds, a minimum 2 pound trigger and correct scope height.

One more question. Since the NRA rules specify a maximum weight for a High Power Silhouette Rifle at 10 pounds, 2 ounces and the rules for a Smallbore Silhouette Rifle are identical except for the limitation to .22 short, long or long rifle chambering, the Smallbore rifle is limited to that same weight, correct? That alone might rule out the Klinsky stock with the CZ action and heavy barrel of the Varmint, combined with the weight of the scope and rings. It would probably be close, anyway.

Again, thanks for the opportunity to learn something new!

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Re: Klinsky stock legal?

Postby Jason on Wed Jan 04, 2012 9:35 am

Yes, that is correct on the weight for the smallbore silhouette rifle.
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Re: Klinsky stock legal?

Postby cedestech on Fri Apr 20, 2012 6:42 pm

Jason wrote: Specifically, this is what the rules say about adjustable buttplates and cheekpieces.

[code]3.15 Buttplates and Cheekpieces - A butt or buttplate having a curved rear surface in which the depth of the
curve exceeds 1/2 inch when measured from a straight line drawn from the top to the bottom of the buttplate is
prohibited. Buttplates must be centered. .



Just found this post while researching that stock....

Not so much interested in the stock as much as the adjustable butt pad....

Adjustable is OK as long as it is centered, correct? I REALLY like the Morgan curved, have it on 2 air rifles now, would like to install on my CZ silhouette.

:?:
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