New to the sport.

[apr67]

I've done two matches and at each match I've done 2 rounds of iron sight and 2 rounds of optics. My optic guns are a 46 Marlin 39a with a 4x Weaver 3/4" scope (not good for this game!), and a marlin Model 60 with a BSA SWEET 22 6-18X40 Adjustable Objective scope. My Iron gun is a marlin 795 with Tech Sights peep sights.

I want to get a little more serious for the optics gun. I don't have Anschutz money, (spell check wants that to be Auschwitz, weird?), so I'm looking at getting something not top shelf.

I'd love to go with a marlin (As you can tell I have a case of Marlin Itus), but for this I think I need a different brand, especially since 'freedom group' has marlin manufacturing all screwed up right now.

So my choices are a Savage Mark II or a CZ. My goal is to practice, get better and move on some day. This gun will remain in my safe for other uses, such as training my kids to fend of Zombies.

Towards that end I've been looking at the Savage Mark II GY. Its a youth version of the Mark II with a 19" barrel, and a shorter (wood) stock. I would either restock it or add 4" of extension to it. This thing is available for under $200.

Or

The CZ 452 scout. Its a youth version also, but with a 16.2" barrel (which is as long as a 22lr barrel needs to be for normal ammo supposedly), and has a beechwood hogback stock. I would have to restock it, and buy magazines as it has a SLED. This thing is about $300.

Both have iron sights (a requirement) and adjustable triggers (a requirement).

Is the CZ that much better of a gun? I am looking for pure function, not resale, or aesthetics.

Thanks, and any other suggestions are welcomed.

[Bob259]

If it was me and open sights were a must then I would go with the CZ455 LUX
http://www.cz-usa.com/products/view/455lux/

No need to restock and will serve you well with or without a scope.

[dustinflint]

I have a Savage MK II and a CZ 452 and I believe the CZ is a better gun. It's smoother and shoots a little better group at 100 meters. With a Timney trigger the CZ is an absolute machine. The Savage is nice, too, but not quite as good as the CZ.

Dustin

[apr67]

Bob - I've read the 455's aren't as good a quality as the 452's on several forums, perhaps even here.. I've also read that the hogback stock on a Lux is less than optimal with a scope, is that true?

Dustinflint - What would you say the difference in groups is at 100 yards.

Thanks both of you for your input.

[Innocent]

apr67,
I have multiple CZ 452's including the scout, aside from the size of the stock, it is as good as the other CZ 452's... and any 452 magazine will work in it. I agree after having shot several of the 455's, go with a 452. As for the Savage MkII's the CZ will trump it, straight out of the box. I have shot several of the Savages, and they are good rifles, but for the dollar and adjustablity of add on's/changes I would go with the 452.

Mary

[apr67]

apr67,
I have multiple CZ 452's including the scout, aside from the size of the stock, it is as good as the other CZ 452's... and any 452 magazine will work in it.

Mary thanks. Can you confirm that the scout has a taper to the barrel, its very hard to tell from the tiny online pictures.

[Innocent]

Yes it does have some taper.
BTW I will post elsewhere also but for three months now I have been working with a new scope mounted to one of my CZ's. It is made in Czechoslovakia also.
I have shot it in three matches and had fairly good response to tracking adjustments. Beautiful glass, a little challenging on the turrets in that they are meant for coin, but clicks are clean. Choice of reticles are
a little limited but for an inexpensive starter scope seems to be good. Overall they are a bit heavy, but will hanve no problem with most out of the box hunter rifles making weight.
http://ijksales.com/eagle_eye_scopes.htm
Imported by Eagle Eye Optics here is a cut from their page.

ITEM NO. BZH-12 3-12X42 VARIABLE POWER EXCELLENT FOR ALL USES PROTECTIVE

LENSES FOR BOTH ENDS OF THE SCOPE COATED LENSES EASILY ADJUSTABLE

YOUR COST $ 122.00

Mary

[apr67]

Will the short (16.2") barrel offer any disadvantages?

I am thinking:
Pros
More velocity
Less dwell time in the barrel for the bullet

Cons
Louder
Rifle balance could be off requiring adding weight to the front of the stock?

[Innocent]

apr67...your pro's and cons are well thought out. Truthfully if you are looking for something for kids to grow through, great choice. As for you to shoot, a good shooter can handle anything, I don't think you are really going to notice the
changes in barrel travel time between 16+ and 23 or 24 inches, in your scores. As for noise factor, in 22 you can hear it but it is not unbearably loud. As for modifying the stock to suit you, like adding weights, etc., go for it, a lot of people do that.

Mary

[tenx9]

Frankly, I think by going inexpensive, you'll end up spending more money in the long run. I don't know much about Savages and CZ's but, let me ask a few questions about them
1. How are the triggers? Are there aftermarket triggers available? Does a gunsmith have to work on them to make them appropriate?
2. Are their stocks appropriate for off hand shooting? Must they be pillar bedded to shoot accurately?
3. Used Anschutz's are available all the time. AND those triggers are the best in the world.

Just those first 2 items alone will increase the tab on those rifles substantially if that work must be done in order to make the rifle competitive into the AAA classification. That just might be close to Anschutz territory.
Sure, if I was David Tubb or whoever super master, they can shoot anything. But, regular joes need all the help you can get.

4. Buy a quality scope...Like a Luepold, B&L whatever good scope in order to make weight. If you can't see or the scope won't track accurately, you're just killing yourself and wasting time.

Take your time, save your money. Buy once and buy wisely..................good luck

[Innocent]

tenx9, fyi the CZ 452's are remarkably accurate, and aftermarket triggers are available, no need for re-bedding. There are several stock configurataions that have pro's and con's depending on the height and weight of the shooter. The Savages that I have and others that I have shot go from one end of the spectrum to the other with regard to quality and accuracy, somed good some not good at all.
I agree that quality glass is probably the most important part of a silhouette rifle, because if your glass is not tracking, the accuracy of the rifle is moot.
Also good glass like Leupold, Weaver T, V or KT series, and Sightrons tend to hold their value.
Mary

[apr67]

The best price I can find on a Alschwitz is $800. Add a good scope and now I'm at $1400? I can not afford to do both.

However I can buy a Savage for say $200 with a decent wood stock and a decent trigger. Add magazines, quality one piece scope rail and I am at $300. The Savage accutrigger is reported as being good out of the box, but if it needs cleanup, I can do it, I've done it on other triggers. So now I can add a $600 scope and for about the price of a alschwitz I have a good starter gun and a great scope. In a few years I can change out the gun, and probably have lost what, $150 bucks max?

In the mean time its probably going to be much better than my Marlin 60 semi for learning on.

Anyway that is my thought process.

[Innocent]

Back to invest in good glass, you can always get your money back out of it, if you don't want to shoot anymore. You probably wont be too far off with Savages, the older CZ452's are very consistent on quality though.

Mary

[BCloninger]

As usual, Mary has given very good advice. Based on performance, reliability, and minimal frustration, the best beginner rig recipe I know is a CZ 452 with a Leupold VX-II 6-18x40 and BKL rings. Particularly if you buy good used gear (a.k.a. pre-depreciated), you can recover 90% or more of your initial spend - or you may decide to keep it as your reliable go-to. If you'd like to cut cost some, look at any Sightron Big-Sky scope although those get pretty dear too. I personally rank Weaver after that because of their glass.

[dustinflint]

apr67,

I started shooting smallbore silhouette in June of this year and airgun silhouette in July. We have several VERY good shooters here with TONS of experience and I asked TONS of questions about everything and followed their suggestions. I've made master class in airgun and am just about to do the same in smallbore so I think their suggestions were very good - Here is exactly what I did with my smallbore setup:

I already had a Savage MKII, so i started with that. I found a Bushnell Elite 4200 8-32 x 40 on sale for $400 so I bought that to put on the Savage. I only shot 2 matches with the Savage before I bought a CZ452 Silhouette from Buds Gun Shop for about $380 (http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/prod ... s_id/21773). I think the CZ is a much better gun.

Before I ever shot the CZ, I put in a timney trigger that I bought from one of our shooters. I set it at 2 pounds (http://www.midwestgunworks.com/mm5/merc ... _Code=mgwi).

I also immediately installed a new striker spring ($10) and a new set of action screws $19) that i got from J&P at the suggestion of Baby Huey (https://www.jnpgunsprings.com/product_i ... cts_id=251) (https://www.jnpgunsprings.com/product_i ... ucts_id=25)

I bought a set of BKL double strap scope mounts for $38 (http://www.pyramydair.com/s/a/BKL_1_Rin ... Black/2900) These are the best on the market.

At the suggestion of one of our master shooters, I bought a trigger shoe for $25, this made a BIG difference!!! (I bought this one, which is designed to fit the CZ trigger; I had to shim it a bit to fit the narrow Timney trigger (http://www.joeboboutfitters.com/CZ_452_ ... p19005.htm))

I thought the stock that came with the CZ was too small. One of our shooters has a CZ 452 Scout in a Boyd's TactiCool stock. I liked his stock so I bought one for my gun for about $100 (http://www.boydsgunstocks.com/Boyds-Tac ... 00-411.htm)

I decided to raise the comb of the stock a bit to dial in the fit so I bought a Beartooth comb riser kit for about $23. I think I got it at Bass Pro. (http://www.basspro.com/Beartooth™-Comb- ... 2034/97424)

The scope I was using had duplex reticle and I wanted a dot (START with a dot, don't waste your time with anything else). I also wanted to try higher magnification so, at the suggestion of one of the best shooters in the country, I bought a Weaver T 36 for about $400 (http://www.natchezss.com/Category.cfm?c ... w/Sunshade)

I shot that scope for a few months but I was shooting in the mid to high 30s with my airguns at 24x and low 30s with my smallbore rifle at 36x so I recently switched to a Weaver T24 to keep everything the same. That scope cost about $390 shipped (http://www.natchezss.com/Category.cfm?c ... w/Sunshade)

That CZ is a GREAT gun. I told myself that I'd buy an Anschutz when I started consistantly shooting high AAA scores, so I bought one, but I would be happy shooting that CZ for a LONG time. I would NOT start with an Anschutz when you can get such an outstanding rifle for $400 to see if you really get interested in the sport.

There are lots of opinions on scopes and I dont think you can go wrong with a Leupold, Weaver, Bushnell 4200 or Sightron. In my opinion, for the money the Weavers and Bushnells cant be beat, so I use those. I have 3 weavers and two Bushnell 4200s on my silhouette rifles and they are just perfect.

Just remember that all the equipment is great, but you're only going to get good with LOTS of PRACTICE and LOTS of MATCHES.

Hope that helped, good luck.

Dustin